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Nebraska Shooting - What The Hell Happened

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mountainman, Dec 6, 2007.


  1. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Then we are just going to have to agree to disagree. The doughboys of WWI and GI's of WWII were used to rifles. During that time more of the U.S. population was rural, and as such our guys knew how to shoot. Remember the story of Private York? My family that served was the same way, they all grew up hunting and shooting. You cannot tell me that these rural doughboys and GI's were not better prepared to shoot the enemy than the modern day kids are who play video games. You know what I get out of video games? Fun, that's it. What I get out of a lifetime of hunting and shooting means a lot more. Look at the rounds expended per enemy kill has risen with every war. I attribute a lot of this to the fact that we do not have the same number of young men growing up shooting and becoming riflemen. Video games do not prepare individuals for shooting like real shooting does. A kid playing 1st person shooters vs. someone who grew up shooting? I know where I give the advantage.
    .
     
  2. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    What is the same is there were numerous targets of opportunity for both shooters. They were both distracted by that. As such more than likely in a crowded mall a lone citizen more than likely could have put rounds on target as Mark Wilson did. Of course we will never know as we were not there, and at this point it is just conjecture on our part.
     
  3. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Now you are assuming that he can put rounds on target better than you can. There again, many variables concerning his/yours ability to handle duress and shooting abilities.
     
  4. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++


    Hey, nothing wrong with that. Perfectly valid since you have not seen what I have and I have not seen what you have.
     
  5. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Well I did say "if you can't end it quickly". If you can more power to you and you will survive. Mr. Wilson did sneak up, he even got first shots. But he was not able to end it quickly and he paid the price. Could I have ended it quickly in his place ? Maybe, maybe not. I do make it a practice to double tap center mass and follow up with a headshot. But in his stead if I missed the headshot I might be just as dead as Mr. Wilson.

    My point is this. I have no idea what the shooting abilities of the guy is. (the bad guy) I'm not about to assume I can make a killshot with a pistol better or faster than he can make one with a rifle.

    I think we are on the same side and point here. I don't think we really disagree on much.
     
  6. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I wouldn't want to take on anyone with a firearm and would not do so unless it was to save lives. Arroyo didn't go home, but then again he was the shooter. I think you mean Mark Wilson. A little background on Mr. Wilson. He was highly trained, and used to own an indoor gun range and gun shop which at the time was called "On Target". He trained and shot in many different competitions and in many different disciplines. Ultimately he lost, but playing the odds a lot were on his side. Arroyo was distracted, and was not that good of a shot, and Wilson had the advantage of surprise and superior training and marksmanship. All of his rounds contacted center of mass. It was just bad luck the perp was wearing body armor.

    Here is a pic of Wilson. He was a brave man that saved lives.

    Mark_Wilson (Medium)1.JPG
     
  7. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    His 1911
    Mark_Allen_Wilson_Colt (Medium)1.JPG
     
  8. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Yes my mistake, I meant Mr. Wilson. I did not know he was well trained. But that just furthers my point. He is a hero, he did save lives. But he also went in blind and paid the price. Arroyo was less capable, less trained but he did have a rifle and body armor. (what Mr. Wilson didn't know) However ill trained he is he managed to kill 3 people and hold off multiple well trained opponents for a while.

    My stance is if someone is going to say "yeah I should have been there with my pistol and take the guy out" At the very least acknowledge how unlikely that is to happen considering your opponent has an AK and a deathwish.
     
  9. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++


    Save for the grips, looks exactly like my 1911. Even the same Chip McCormick adjustable trigger. Well that and his is the tactical SS. I have the regular SS mark IV series 80.
     
  10. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I think a big part of it is also personal philosophy. While I would go into it doing what I could to be alive on the other side, my thoughts go something like this; the ONLY absolute guarantee in life is that NONE of us will get out of it alive, so Im gonna die sooner or later and if I die in the process of saveig others then I cant see a much better result that could come from an extra few years and dieing of old age or desease but if I did nothing and others died for that then I would gain no joy from the added years.

    So while I recognize that if NOT already targeted and you engage then you have a real chance of being shot and possibly killed, if spoted before your weapon is trained on its mark your adds are 50;50 at best and lower the greater the range, etc. BUT contrary to most of what Hollywood show, gunfights dont nessicarily end with just 1 of the 2 people dead, it can just as easily be both. So, yeah I recognize it would be very likely to cost a wound or likely death but to me at least to do otherwise if there was at least a fair chance of takeing out the shooter along with me just wouldnt be an option. Im also not saying that makes be a great guy, brave, or that those who would do otherwise are less, I just know how I personaly respond.

    I have worked as a bouncer in some nasty places and lived in some even worse and have walked up to superior numbers when they were armed and I wasnt, have faced knives and even a couple of handguns when unarmed and managed to get out alive and with only a few small chunks missing, I also have the stupid habit that even unarmed when theres gunshots I tend to run against the flow and go toward them (one reason I figured out it would give me a better chance if I started carrying lol).

    I also look at my sidearm as my primary weapon because I know in 99% of situations where I could need a gun for defense the sidearmis what I would be likely to have with me so I train accordingly. I have been an avid hunter and shooter all my life and now that I carry try to practice even more often with my handguns.

    So I know from past experience how I personaly tend to respond to stress, know my abilities with a handgun and recognize that there would be a real chance I wouldnt walk away from the confrontation but also a real chance I could (especialy since I wouldnt be all that distracted since I have 1 target and he would be with the many unarmed targets he is busy engageing untill he notices you as a priority target) but to me the most important fact would be that going into it with the primary goal being to neutralize him and survival being secondary at best, and a reasonable level of skill with my weapon, the shooter would VERY likely be laying beside me if I was killed.
     
  11. RightHand

    RightHand Maslow's Contradiction Moderator Founding Member

    But MM, you forgot to mention that you are built like a Sequoia and could intimidate just about anyone just by walking in their direction [lolol]
     
  12. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Sounds reasonable and well put. Where we differ is in priority. You have survival as secondary at best. I have survival as being equal in every way to neutralize the target. Call me a coward but I'm only willing to RISK my life not outright give it. There are situations where I will give my life bit I'm sure they will be rare and only in the extremely last resort.
     
  13. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well, there is the fact that I suppose if the person CAN be intimidated then seeing me comeing tends to do it. I know I have scared myself a couple of times comeing around a corner and seeing a reflection in an unexpected mirror. lol

    Like I say, I dont figure it makes me any better or worse than a person who would do otherwise, it just changes the definition of 'sucess' somewhat. Given my definition I figure my chances of sucess would be very high, if getting out unharmed AND neutralizeing the shooteris 'sucess' then the odds drop considerably especialy since his deathwish then dose give him a great advantage over your self preservation which IMO would far outweigh his advantage due to the rifle inside of 50 yards. Kind of like the common thread of nearly all the cultures remembered for their greatness in battle seems to be that they had the tendancy to go into battle nearly indifrent to survival with the goal being to kill all the enemy and when they did they often came out alive by default. I think that was also somewhat along the same lines of what OGM had been saying, when theres 500 enemy and your out of ammo you dont worry about mortality, you just kill them all, in the unlikely event you succeed you survive if you dont you fall on a lager pile of your enemy and if you dont try you most likely die anyway or worse.
     
  14. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Well if your already in the mix and just run out of ammo it's in for a penny in for a pound. There is no going back anymore do or die.

    My line of thinking is more sun tzu, put your strongest point on your enemy's weakest point. Picking the time and place to engage can make all the difference.

    Scenario we all go in one at a time and shooter can kill all of us one at a time. Wait a little longer and mass as a group then go in stacked. He won't take all out someone will get a chance to return fire. Same weapons and people just waiting for a better time to engage.
     
  15. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    [wannamesswitme]?[rnt]

    You'll notice I deleted that post( obviously too late.:oops:) It added nothing to the thread except to take a parting shot at you...(my bad maners)
    I NOT highly trained combat shooter never claimed to be..I don't dispense the Gospel of gunfighting.

    EDITED: WAY too much personal info to be eft swingin on the line.
    [tinfoil101][tinfoil101]
    I have not played entry team. I never claimed to; If we were seen we hadjust burned the case...I am proud of my background. We shot frequently but that was only a small part of the job as it is with any law enforcement position excepting maybe full time swat or hrt.
    I had a secret service friend on the "CAT" team (president's counter assault team) Those guys worked out; shot and traveled with the pres's motorcade vehicles. They're the badasses.
    I gotta "cat" sweat shirt somewhere...[lolol]
    desert storm; we also rode along and provided security for air staff and intel folks in town.
    I have not trained with swat...Problem between you and me I don't feel I have to prove anything. and I have never preached from on high to have the absolute correct answer for a fluid situation,I don't believe I'v ever made a declaration where cqb tactics where in question(not my area).
    I just don't believe in absolutes from many folks.

    I don't have issue where you spend your time
    Or who you spend it with...
    I am now completely sure you can out shoot me.
    You don't see me telling people they're full of it. Or the correct way to clear a room.
    "The Problem"; is I don't really care you can out shoot me.

    the issues I have with you here is; Someone here proves a point and uses a "because"and a fact; your reply is:
    " Oh yeah of course you are correct under that scenario:Buuuuutt...and we go around for days agreeing bbbuuuuttt not agreeing.its all "Armchair rambo" ing because no one was there.

    I have given you credit earlier you have more time training behind a weapon now.( that should be it)you've done hare and hound, I've run (pre gps) vehicle trackers on real surveillances involving foriegn attaches( same basic thing). I don't feel less for it.I don't have anything to prove to anybody. Because frankly I don't feel the need to.( it doesn't change who I am...)
    bottonm line:
    Hartage this got way too personal; I'm sorry, I've had a tough week. I took a cheap shot. I might be more apt to agree or even quote you if you didn't come across as all knowing.
    You obviously want us to respect you for your gun skills.

    You CAN probably shoot rings around most (some ?) of us in a tactical environment.

    Final thought if you like this stuff so much why haven't you gone to an academy and put a uniform on?.

    Don't answer that. thats a thinly veiled challenge into6 pages of am to/am not...
    I had high hopes after you posted a few really informative replies . Now we are back to the
    "anybody doesn't believe this is gonna get killed".

    Have a nice weekend. It was my mistake to get in to this thread and lose my cool it won't happen again.
    peace bra[beer][beer]
     
  16. Mountainman

    Mountainman Großes Mitglied Site Supporter+++

    You said it!!! Mister "know it all" strikes again. May I also say mister negative? I stopped posting because anything you have to say is twisted around and just causes another post in response. Someones computer needs to be taken out with a 22 derringer, don't want to have an unfair advantage!!!
     
  17. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Well, the news covers what happened pretty well tonight, which is where this started. Have we had enough yet? (And yes, it was an AK47 clone, not an SKS.) How about we leave this right where it is unless something has to be done with the tempers that are getting edgy?
     
  18. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I'm done and a little nauseated...(and embarassed)..
     
  19. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Eh what can I say ? nobody is perfect. I prob have two main issues. One is I'm a perfectionist and if something does not fit just right it bothers me. (not a good thing) Second I focus on the issue so much I loose sight of the bigger picture. I realize that people come to forums to discuss. Not usually to fine tune an issue but for camraderie, to feel good. I have a bad tendency to focus on the issue what is being said and tune everything else out. Doing so creates a whole host of problems. But hey, everyone is a work in progress right ?

    With the arm-chair-rambo thing I wanted to work against the very common mentality of "I have gun I will fix". I wanted to highlight the other side of the coin that things may not turn out the way you expect even if you do have a gun. Everybody always highlights the "hero" aspect of having a gun to save the day. I would hate for someone with a ccw permit and a gun just become another victim because he was a bit too gung ho going into a situation. I hope that somewhat explains my motives on that subject.

    As for something to prove.... I really don't have anything to prove, though it might seem that way. When I read a statement and it does not fit perfectly into the situation or leaves something out that is critical it bothers me. The focus is not on me or on the other person but on the statement and the situation does it fit perfectly or not ?

    We all come with our own sets of baggage and strengths. As far as I'm concerned everyone is a work in progress including myself.

    Put a uniform on... I really have no interest in cqb beyond preparation and a hobby. At some point I may find myself in a situation where those skills might be what gets me through. Like riding motorcycles. I have learned how to ride a crotch rocket and dirt bike to at least intermediate levels. I don't even own a motorcycle. But if need be I can get on a crotch rocket and be able to catch up to or leave behind most cars. Because of that I have the option of using that form of transportation that I otherwise could not. I have no interest in cqb as a profession.

    You seem to have an impressive background in intelligence gathering. I'll be sure to keep my tin-foil hat and broad-spectrum rf analyzer on around you. Hmm, maybe its time for me to run a TDR (time domain reflectometry) sweep on all my structured cableing again. Hey, if you ever park down the street from my house in a van and see me wave at you be nice and wave back.
     
  20. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++


    Hey, if you think your words are not understood properly then just say so and how so. Isn't that what a discussion is ?

    It is not about that, if you have a particular stance on something you should be able to make supporting statements. If my stance is wrong then you should be able to show that and vice versa. When did name calling get into the mix ? Did I call you names ?
     
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