Nebraska Shooting - What The Hell Happened

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mountainman, Dec 6, 2007.

  1. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    Pres and DHS at mall on day of massacre. Whoa! Now here's an interesting coincidence, reported by Charles Gibson of ABC news. Go to Alex Jones Prison and scroll down on the left to the fifth item " Minister of DHS at mall same day for massacre. There will be plenty of guns in the malls pretty soon. Take off your shoes please. Cause, Reaction, Solution. [patr][patr][patr]
  2. jim2

    jim2 Monkey+++

    I wouldn't shoot except to save myself, family, or friends because of legal problems that WILL occur later on. Might make an exception for children, but that is all. Adults should take responsibility for their own safety, as I and most others here have.

  3. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Hand gun against a rifle?
    COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) - The gunman believed to have killed four people at a megachurch and a missionary training school had been thrown out of the school a few years ago and had been sending it hate mail, police said in court papers Monday. The gunman was identified as Matthew Murray, 24, who was home-schooled in what a friend said was a deeply religious Christian household. Murray's father is a neurologist and a leading multiple-sclerosis researcher.
    Five people—including Murray—were killed, and five others wounded Sunday in the two eruptions of violence 12 hours and 65 miles apart.
    The first attack took place at Youth With a Mission, a training center for missionaries in the Denver suburb of Arvada; the other occurred at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where Murray was shot to death by a security guard. The training center maintains an office at the 10,000-member church.
    "Through both investigations it has been determined that most likely the suspect in both shootings are one in the same," police said in court papers.
    Colorado Springs police said the "common denominator in both locations" was Youth With a Mission.
    "It appears that the suspect had been kicked out of the program three years prior and during the past few weeks had sent different forms of hate mail to the program and-or its director," police said.
    In a statement, the training center said health problems kept Murray from finishing the program. It did not elaborate. Murray did not complete the lecture phase or a field assignment as part of a 12-week program, Youth With a Mission said.
    "The program directors felt that issues with his health made it inappropriate for him to" finish, it said.
    Police gave no immediate details on the hate mail. And the training center said that Murray left in 2002—five years ago, not three—and that no one there can recall any visits or other communication from him since then.
    Earlier Monday, a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity said it appeared Murray "hated Christians."
    Investigators have not said whether Murray singled out his victims. But the two people killed at the church—sisters Stephanie and Rachael Works, ages 18 and 16—frequented the training center, their uncle Mark Schaepe of Lincoln, Neb., told The Gazette of Colorado Springs.
    Authorities searched the Murray house on a quiet street in Englewood on Monday for guns, ammunition and computers. No one was home when a reporter visited the split-level brick home early Monday. Murray's father, Ronald S. Murray, is chief executive of the Rocky Mountain Multiple Sclerosis Center in Englewood.
    Matthew Murray lived there along with a brother, Christopher, 21, a student at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Okla.
    A neighbor, Cody Askeland, 19, said the brothers were home-schooled, describing the whole family as "very, very religious."
    Christopher studied for a semester at Colorado Christian University before transferring to Oral Roberts, said Ronald Rex, dean of admissions and marketing at Colorado Christian. He said Matthew Murray had been in contact with school officials this summer about attending the school but decided he wasn't interested because he thought the school was too expensive.
    Police said Murray's only previous brush with the law was a traffic ticket earlier this year.
    Senior Pastor Brady Boyd of New Life Church said the gunman had no connection to the church. "We don't know this shooter," Boyd said. "He showed up on our property yesterday with a gun with the intention of hurting people, and he did."
    The gunman opened fire at 12:30 a.m. at the Youth With a Mission center. Witnesses said the man asked to spend the night there and opened fire with a handgun when he was turned down. They described him as a young man, perhaps 20, in a dark jacket and cap.
    Later, at New Life Church, a gunman wearing a trench coat and carrying a high-powered rifle opened fire in the parking lot and later walked into the church as a service was letting out.
    Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot and killed Murray, who was found with a rifle and two handguns, police said. The pastor called her "a real hero."
    "When the shots were fired, she rushed toward the scene and encountered the attacker there in a hallway. He never got more than 50 feet inside our building," he said. "There could have been a great loss of life yesterday, and she probably saved over 100 lives."
    Boyd said the gunman had a lot of ammunition and estimated that 40 rounds had been fired inside the church, leaving what looked like a "war scene."
    Jessie Gingrich, who had left New Life and was in the parking lot getting into her car, saw the gunman get a rifle from his trunk and open fire on a van with people inside. Gingrich said she cowered in her vehicle, fumbling with the key.
    "I was just expecting for the next gunshot to be coming through my car. Miraculously—by the grace of God—it did not," she told ABC's "Good Morning America."
    About 7,000 people were in and around the church the time of the shooting, Boyd said. Security had been beefed up after the shootings hours earlier in Arvada, he said. The church had a total of 15 to 20 volunteer security officers inside at the time of the attack, he said.
    Some members of the congregation reacted with compassion and forgiveness, in keeping with their faith.
    Ashley Gibbs was getting into a car with David Harris when they heard the gunshots. They stayed in the vehicle.
    "It was obvious that he was in some sort of pain and going through a lot," Gibbs told "Today." "I just prayed God would bring him peace."
    New Life, with a largely upper middle-class membership, was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was dismissed last year after a former male prostitute alleged he had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with him. Haggard admitted committing unspecified "sexual immorality."
    The two people killed at the missionary center were identified as Tiffany Johnson, 26, and Philip Crouse, 24.
    Johnson, who grew up in Chisholm, Minn., loved working with children and wanted to see the world, said family friend Carla Macynski.
    "Tiffany was a well-liked, easygoing 26-year-old. She was friendly, adventurous and a definite leader," Macynski said as she choked back tears. Johnson had traveled to Egypt, Libya and South Africa with the missionary group.
    Crouse, of Alaska, was a former skinhead who went through a dramatic spiritual conversion at 18. He had helped build a foster home at a Crow Indian reservation in Montana, said Ronny Morris, who works with a Denver chapter of the mission.
    "Whenever somebody asks me to give a specific situation where a kid's life has been changed or transformed, I always think of Phil, because he had such a radical transformation of life," said pastor Zach Chandler in Anchorage, Alaska.
    Youth With a Mission was started in 1960 and now has 1,100 locations with 16,000 full-time staff, said Darv Smith, director of a Youth With a Mission center in Boulder.
    The Colorado shootings came days after a 19-year-old gunman opened fire at a busy department store in Omaha, Neb., killing eight people and himself.
  4. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    :shock:[stirpot]("probably saved over a 100 lives'"),

    er,(christ!..., She coulda' been killed)...[stayback]

    towards the gunfire:[clp][clp][applaud] WHAT A HERO!("Life, nobodies getting out of here alive").
  5. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    The shooter likely didn't play enough video games. :rolleyes:

  6. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Beat me to it Sea.

    Thank God for that lady with a handgun. We have a YWAM just down the road from our house. Big complex, lots of young men and women.

    One man or woman armed, can make a difference. Even against a rifle.
  7. Binford

    Binford Monkey+++

    I'm kind of with you there, Jim, but then I figure if I have a tactical advantage (i.e., in a position to relatively safely engage such a gunman who doesn't see me), you might be his next victim and I have the chance to stop him. It'd be a tough call, but I'd most likely do what I could to stop him. Hope you'd do the same for me! ;)
  8. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Actually no, news says he was home schooled and deeply religious. Not likely to have been permitted to have first person shooters. Not a bad thing or he would have been a lot more effective. There goes your little snipe eh ? :rolleyes:

    Good thing he was not out in open space on a third floor shooting down eh ? Otherwise we would see more people killed.
  9. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    [ROFL]:lol:[LMAO]:lol:laffbiglaff Stop please, your killing me.....been more effective if he played video games...........biglaffbiglaffbiglaffbiglaffbiglaff

    True, but then again the shooter in the mall last week wasn't shooting off of the third floor either like we all assumed in our war-gaming. He walked into a department store and started shooting people in the store. The people in the store were all of the KIA's and casualties.
  10. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Well thats how we train our fighter pilots, tankers, cops, you name it. It is a big part of training of much of our professionals that can afford to develop games for their training. Maybe we should scrap all that. I guess they are all just wasting the tens of millions spent developing 3d based training.

    I guess as with anything new there will be those that will resist even if it is the future. Before the Wright brothers this saying was common... "if people were meant to fly God would have given us wings"

    The pilot of the last commercial plane you flew on had to qualify his skills on a video game.
  11. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I've seen the tanker simulator/trainers..... it aint "Doom".

    H... I agree with you that "videogames" of a type are great training tools, but I have to strongly disagree that the first person shooters that we play (myself included) have anything to do with skill or effectiveness. I understand they learn about cover/concealment and all, but that goes out the window when real bullets fly.

    You can train a kid to fight using a UFC game, teach him how the holds work, footwork, combinations, submissions..... but when you put him in a cage for the first time and he realizes he's not got any buttons to push, it's over..... way over.
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    she was a courageous "part time volunteer" security guard?

    WRONG ,wifes says she was a cop..:oops:[siren]
  13. Evenglischatiest

    Evenglischatiest Monkey+++

    I always preferred the one from Willy Wonka:
    "If God had intended man to walk, he wouldn't have invented roller skates." [gone] [chopper]

    You monkeys should be ashamed of yourselves. This poor little guy sits there patiently, stuck at the bottom, forgotten and ignored. He doesn't ask much. He just wants to play his small, but important role, when the time comes. Yet even in this, his finest hour, you cruel monkeys still won't give him a chance.
    I will.


    Long live joystick smiley. I salute you. [bow][respect] :D
  14. Binford

    Binford Monkey+++

    Wow.... She went up against a deadly rifle with a mere handgun and actually survived?!

    Good tactics, maybe? Took advantage of the element of surprise, perhaps? Hmmmm, that sounds oddly familiar. I'm just sayin'.... ;)

  15. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    Well she was not alone. I just saw an interview with a guy that said he popped up and called the gunman all sorts of not so nice names. Apparantly the gunman targeted and started shooting at him. He did this after seeing that she was approaching the gunman.

    I would love to give the woman credit for her skills. I give her credit for her courage and heroism, but she did not act alone. I'm not sure the outcome would be the same had she not had another person coordinating with her and intentionally was distracting the gunman. By the way the distraction guy (brave sob) did get shot. He was one of the people that went to the hospital with wounds.

    She is also not some arm-chair-rambo in an unfamiliar place. She was there for an exact reason (security) and did have LE training. Volunteer or not she did have a job to do (protect that place) hence was very familiar with the building.
  16. hartage

    hartage Monkey+++

    What would you rather go up against ? A kid that through ONLY training knows holds, footwork, combinations, etc etc.... Or a kid with no knowledge at all ???

    Personaly I would much rather go up against a kid that just picked up an AK and is now trying to go ape. Rather than the kid trying to go ape but also has plinked with that same AK for years and has learned way too much about taking cover while firing and knows to be stable, how to lead a moving target etc. These are easily learned through video games.

    As what another person said in another thread about surveilance cameras. He worked with what was among the best in his day. Today he can see things sold in walmart that they would have killed for back in his day.

    Our standards have changed and tolerance has gotten higher. But through video games our kids are learning things they really should not be learning. Minimize video games all you want. Fact still is when our kids used to go ape (long ago) they shot out lights, mailboxes or whatever. Now there are body counts and seems to be getting higher and higher.
  17. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    Personally, I think it's all the crap that's in our water! (???)
    Or maybe not!
    Let's recap....
    WE are no longer supposed to spank our children.....
    Ya know something? I only spanked 1 of my 8 kids, and only once. 1987 to be exact.
    Seems it took effect on the rest.
    I am not the best father in the world by any means, but to quote my ex wife:
    "Your kids don't love you, they fear you!"
    My reply: "Fear is a marvelous thing, it kept me alive in Vietnam"!
    Strangely enough, my kids come to me with only a problem they can't handle on their own. Not their mother.
    I think in some cases, respect may be borne of fear.
    Regardless, some will blame the parents, and others will blame society, movies, music, etc.
    It's a vast social problem that WE have to deal with.
    People seem to have lost all respect for anyone except themselves, as only they seem to count in the world.
    Perhaps, (just a thought here), just maybe,.... WE have allowed ourselves to become numbed to violence, from such things as movies and video games?
    Freud would have a field day with this one!
  18. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    Well Hartage

    I told myself that I wouldn't but I needed a good laugh so I took you off ignore. You sure delieved. [LMAO][LMAO][LMAO] But now I've had the laugh that I needed for the day and back to ignore you go. [loco]

  19. kckndrgn

    kckndrgn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Please cite your source for the "other" person. I have read almost every article about this and have not seen anything about someone distracting the gunman.

    "There was chaos," Assam said, as parishioners ran away, "I will never forget the gunshots. They were so loud.""I saw him coming through the doors" and took cover, Assam said. "I came out of cover and identified myself and engaged him and took him down.""God was with me," Assam said. "I didn't think for a minute to run away."
  20. RightHand

    RightHand Been There, Done That RIP 4/15/21 Moderator Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I saw "the other man" who distracted the shooter interviewed on the news this morning.
survivalmonkey SSL seal warrant canary