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Need advice, exchange student wants to shoot

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ditch witch, Oct 20, 2012.

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  1. ditch witch

    ditch witch resident bacon hoarder Site Supporter+

    We have an exchange student from eastern Europe. Before she came to the US, all her friends told her that she would get shot. "Crazy Americans all they do is shoot each other." When she first got into our home and saw the gun cabinet she was scared to even go near it. She was afraid to go to the mall or the movies, afraid she would get shot.

    The Mr and I carry all the time. At first it scared her to death to be in the truck with us and our pistols. After a few weeks of not getting shot or seeing anyone else get shot, she seemed more at ease.

    We have taken every opportunity that presents itself to portray gun owners and guns themselves in the best possible light. She told us about being mugged by gypsies who beat her up when she was 14, threw her on the ground kicking and punching her and stole her groceries. The Mr said that if that happened here, the gypsies would sprout holes and so it doesn't happen here. I said that's why I carry a gun. A group of idiots will quickly lose interest in whatever I have in my bag when staring down the barrel of a .45.

    The other day I caught her watching me while I cleaned our shotguns. She asked a few questions like how to know if it's loaded and if it could just go off on it's own. I explained it all to her, and she went back to her room. Then earlier this week the story came out about the burglar in OK who got shot by the little girl hiding in the closet. She had a lot of different emotions on that one but mostly happy the kid was able to defend herself.

    Today she came and told me she wants to learn how to shoot. The problem, and I explained this to her, is that the agency that she is an exchange student with has a policy that if the student is caught shooting guns, they are immediately sent home. It's not just guns, they have this big honkin list of "dangerous activity" that includes everything from riding a riding mower to skydiving. I reminded her of this, and said that if the coordinator or anyone else at the agency found out it would be an instant Go Home Ticket for her. She said, how would they ever know? Pretty much what I'm thinking. I told her I'd think about it.

    What do you think? She's 17 and understands that if I say ok she could not tell her parents or friends back home until she got back home because they would most likely tell the agency about it. I don't know whether to follow the rules and say no, or say eff the rules (like I normally do) and teach her. Man I really want to teach her, and not just how to shoot but the whole point of being an armed citizen. I need some input here.
    oldawg and chelloveck like this.
  2. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Can you PM me the clauses relating to the prohibition of shooting?

    Work arounds might be:

    Allowing her to access Youtube videos of basic firearms handling,

    Allowing her to see you demonstrating firearm safety, (a necessary and highly desirable thing to know, given that firearms are part of the domestic environment),

    Showing her the difference between a functional firearm and a replica firearm, (as a safety measure).

    Is paintball a proscribed activity? If not, that may be used.

    a replica firearm might be used (because it can't shoot) to train her in safety drills and firing drills, adopting stances, breathing and sighting drills and so on.

    Wii shooting??? A number of mass shooting perps, at least the nerdy youths, had little to no practical use of firearms prior to their shooting sprees, yet had racked up many hours of simulated shooting playing video games.

    The dilemma is a moral one, as much as a legalistic one. The parents signed on to the program, accepting that the conditions imposed upon hosts in "loco parentis" would be abided by. By departing from the letter of the agreement, then the mutual contract between parents, the sponsoring organisation and the hosting parents is broken. If a host cannot abide with the limitation on "shooting" then the dilemma could be avoided by not participating in the program. Perhaps a compromise between the two opposing impulses (compliance vs non compliance)is by finding the wriggle room between abiding with the letter of the rules, but not the spirit of the rules.
    ditch witch likes this.
  3. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    OPSEC, witchy, has to rule. There's also the agency rules to be followed. Whether or not there's a contract been signed by you and/or her, that has to be considered. If there was, well, you see where that might be headed. Now, if she goes to the range with you and sees what it's all about, soup to nuts on safety and technique, well, that's probably OK. Think about handling unloaded guns (since it looks from what you said that shooting is prohibited, but handling, well ---.) You also have to wonder who else that you might run into on the range might recognize what's going on.

    Make it a point to find out what the rules in her home country are. It's an odds on bet that some gun ownership and shooting is permitted.

    Get a few old copies of "American Rifleman" and have her read all the "Armed Citizen" columns for a flavor of why and what.

    I'd be cautious about encouraging flouting the rules, no matter if the rules make sense or not. There could be some effects at her home if shipped back for a violation. Might also be that she would wind up on a list if she ever even tells her parents later.

    If she goes back knowing something beside the academics, what a wonderful ambassador she will be. Congrats on getting one worth teaching.

    Doubled with Chelly. He has the points, too.
    ditch witch and chelloveck like this.
  4. ditch witch

    ditch witch resident bacon hoarder Site Supporter+

    chelloveck, honestly I've never seen where it was written that she couldn't shoot guns. At one of the meetings with our area coordinator, she outlined some of the activities they are not allowed to do because of their insurance regulations. Driving any form of motorized vehicle, sky diving, riding in a hot air balloon, shooting firearms... that's all she said. I never signed anything stating I wouldn't let her do any of it and our girl said she'd never gotten any list either. The coordinator just said when in doubt ask her.

    ghrit, the range I go to is in another town and the few times I ever see anyone there (it's sort of a self serve one) they pay no attention to me so that doesn't worry me much. But you're right, the only thing they said was "shooting". FAIK she can do everything up to pulling the trigger... the fun part. :D

    Her country is pretty liberal re: gun ownership. Similar to US I think, allows for concealed carry, semi-autos, and unlike us there are no laws against carrying a gun onto campus or into schools. I don't really know where her fear of them comes from. It may be more a fear of a gun in the hands of a nutty American. :cool: Or maybe her family and the circle they run in lean more towards the western European attitudes.
  5. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    DW, here is my take.
    If you teach her you may actually save her life one day. I say do it!
    She's not going to tell the agency, why would she. If she were in my house, she'd have trigger time.
    Mrs Visu never shot a gun until after we got married. Now she asks to go shooting. Whether it's an old fridge or paper, she's good to go.

    Seriously this really comes down to a matter of trust. Do you trust her not to shoot you? If so, Range time for the gal. If she is with you and the SHTF, I'd want her to know how to react. I started to train my kids at 5+ years of age on how to operate the weapons I used to own before loosing them in a tragic boating accident. I lost the b0at and everything on board. Alas, some day I'll buy some more weapons.

    Maybe it's me, but i'd also put her in some Self Defense classes before she went back home to the gypsies.

    If she likes you folks, she's not going to tell anyone. Seriously, what have you got to lose? Yeah, there are all kinds of rules and laws.

    Do you drive at the speed limit all the time?
    Have you ever over stated your charitable deductions?
    Have you reported all your internet purchases?

    No, I haven't either.
    I'm weird that way.

    Teach her, you will feel better for it when she has to go back home.

    find out what are the popular weapons in her AO
    buy them,
    and teach her on them.
    You will be an awesome surrogate mom!

    I'm guessing Makarov and AK/SKS platforms would be a good idea.

    Teach her! you will be her heros in the days to come.

    YMMV, this is IMHO but you have an excellent opportunity to change her world for the better.

    DO IT!
    ExHelot, tulianr and ditch witch like this.
  6. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    If it isn't written and signed for, it doesn't exist. People forget what they are told, especially in the heat of learning something interesting. Just for s&g, check your own insurance policies, they might fill in where the agency's don't.
    ExHelot, chelloveck, whynot and 2 others like this.
  7. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Ok, maybe i'm an idiot. I teach her and beg ignorance later if necessary. I'm not ask permission of anyone if it's ok to teach someone to defend themselves.

    Yeah, I'm stupid that way.
    ExHelot and ditch witch like this.
  8. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    If the actual discharge of a firearm, aka "shooting" is the only prohibition, then it seems to me that there is plenty of wriggle room for "dry" firearms training. As I observed before, as firearms are a part of the domestic environment, and as a matter of duty of care, some time spent on firearm safety would be an eminently responsible thing to do.

    Even if she can't actually discharge a firearm, she can still learn how to group and zero, and adjust sights, firearms cleaning and maintenance and so forth. Nerf guns anyone for fun???
  9. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Chelly, I'm going to have to disagree with you. WTF, she want's to know how to shoot. I'm giving her real ammo and real training.
    If it's not real it's academic. Nothing like real world experience.

    If the young lady is asking, then she is getting. What, she wants to get sent back home? I think not.

    I'd not ask permission and I'd just do it if i trusted her.

    Don't worry Chelly, If need be, I'd bring you a gun so you could defend your stuff there in OZ.

    I guess when someone says 'You can't do that ...' I kinda get pissed off. It's a God given right to be able to defend yourself against both wild animals and tyrants. And yes, I think Julia Gillard is a tyrant just like the idiots we have here.
    ExHelot and STANGF150 like this.
  10. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I would do all the Dry Fire training at the house, slow and sure, that included Cleaning, Loading and Safeing, a variety of weapons. Then schedule a "Camping Trip" during one of the School Holidays, out in the wilds of Texas, and do the Live Fire, then, with "No Witnesses"....That would be "My Suggestion".....
    TnAndy and VisuTrac like this.
  11. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Provided that she doesn't shoot herself or yourself in the foot, DW.....I guess you'd have plausible deniability....just get her to surrender her digicam and web enabled smart 'phone for the duration of the, um, "camping trip". The last thing you want is for the newby annie oakley to post the evidence on facebook, and tweet all about it. : O
  12. RevJammer

    RevJammer Monkey++

    The problem I see is that she gave her word. She agreed to the rules. What message would that send? Even if the rules are stupid, she should honor her agreement.

    Just my $.02

    ColtCarbine and Tracy like this.
  13. UGRev

    UGRev Get on with it!

    yeah, I'm with Chello on the no video, no pics, no audio..
  14. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    1. There is no law, so no is broken.
    2. Can she be quiet about it? if not, she goes home and has learned firearms instruction. If she can keep quiet, she goes home later with firearm instructions, same same.
    3. She remains quiet, goes home and becomes a gun advocate in her home area, win, win, win.
    4. Later in life she decides she likes America better and moves back. After she finishes school and becomes a Model AMERICAN Gun owner and goes to battle against anti's here with a point of history none of them personally has ..lol
    I'd do it in a heartbeat. But thats just me ;)
    TnAndy likes this.
  15. ditch witch

    ditch witch resident bacon hoarder Site Supporter+

    This is the part I'm hanging up on. I trust her, she will keep her mouth shut and tell no one, and she's smart enough not to shoot herself in the foot.

    But, while I never signed anything stating that I wouldn't let her do certain activities, I made a promise to her parents to basically BE her parent while she's with us. It's one thing for me to ignore rules I think are stupid (and I do it all the time). I've always said what people don't know I'm up to won't' hurt them.

    In this case I'd be encouraging someone else's daughter, go ahead and break rules that are stupid, just don't get caught and don't tell mom and dad. I WANT to do it... but I'm not a parent and never been any sort of role model. Kinda new territory for me here.
    chelloveck likes this.
  16. UGRev

    UGRev Get on with it!

    Is any agreement really valid if and when it pertains to learning how to defend yourself?
    VisuTrac likes this.
  17. Jaybird

    Jaybird Monkey+

    It sounds to me like you are struggling with the moral issue of encouraging someone else to go against their word. For that reason I would say don't do it. Some rules should be broken, but if we don't have our word, what do we have? Videos, dry fire, use all methods at your disposal to teach her how to safely handle guns and how to shoot. Maybe there will be a way to actually let her shoot at some point. If not, she has learned a lot about guns and the importance of keeping her word.

    This certainly isn't the answer in every situation, but it seems to fit with what I think you are struggling with. That's my thoughts as as always YMMV. Your struggle with this tells me a lot about you. Thank you for being believing in integrity.
    Tracy and chelloveck like this.
  18. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Let her shoot. Teach her proper safety and handling. I understand the moral dilemma, but she is certainly old enough to be de-nanny stated. The campout and shoot-out sounds like a fun thing to do. Maybe she could even blast a rattle snake or two.

    Oh....do you have hiking shoes with heels? I was pondering what you would put on your feet after your shoe thread. [cow]
    ditch witch and Quigley_Sharps like this.
  19. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Actually, I would take the photos, etc, and have her post them the day before she is flying home on her FB account so she could prove to her friends that Americans are not gun hungry murderers.
    ditch witch and Quigley_Sharps like this.
  20. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

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