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Need some understanding

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by BigAggie06, Mar 20, 2011.

  1. BigAggie06

    BigAggie06 Monkey+

    Was reading on another forum and a guy was asking about advice for a .22lr as a SHTF weapon.

    His premise was simple enough:
    1) Light weight + less report / muzzle flash = easier to evade
    2) Cheaper ammo = greater amounts of practice = more accurate shot placement
    3) Ability to carry larger quantities of ammo on person vs larger caliber weapons

    All of this sounds reasonable to me but he was slammed pretty hard (i.e. Limited effective range, limited penetration, all round poor defensive choice). Conversely I come over heat and read the SHTF firearm thread and just about every response suggest picking up a 10/22 or some other .22lr rifle.

    What I am trying to understand is what is the purpose of the 10/22? In the post the other guy was going to use this as his primary SHTF weapon with a .40 or .45 pistol for CQC / HD. Is that a poor idea?

    Would you guys use a .22lr for SD in a pinch (remember his basis is to evade when possible) or would you suggest a .22lr only for small game hunting and pick up another long gun (AR-15, AK-47, centerfire hunting rifle)?
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    As with most things you find on forums, the choice of firearm(s) is a personal sort of thing. One must evaluate the individual situation and come to a conclusion to fit the sit. Opinions are worth what they are, and are also strictly dependent on the writer's view. Bear in mind that multiple weapons is more weight if afoot.
  3. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Any SHTF or such choice is personal opinion and there is no one right or wrong answer. Any weapon can be just that, a weapon. Personally I would hate to have to defend myself with a .22. But I would and could, if that's what I had at hand.

    A friend of mine is a retired marine scout/sniper and has been a firearms and self defense instructor for many years in civilian life. As much an expert as anyone on the subject. We were discussing the merits of different caliber weapons and he surprised me by saying that he trained a lot of women with .22's. Not just for training but to use in self defense.

    The proper use is more important than the power, the penetration ability, knock down power or anything else. He carried a small .32 semi auto and he showed me how he would use it. We stood 15' apart, I had my wifes(unloaded and cleared) 9mm with the laser light on it. He told me to try and put the laser on him. As soon as I started to raise the gun he started running towards me, yelling, and (simulated) rapid firing the .32. He was on me and had the pistol to my neck before I could ever get close to putting the laser on him. Now that is someone with years of first class training but the idea is the same. The way you use a weapon is more important than what weapon you use (IMHO anyway). He said that when someone is firing a weapon at you your brain isn't wondering what caliber it is.

    Another method he showed me was how he taught women, or men, to use a .22 rifle for self defense. He said that the women were more likely to use a .22 successfully than something with more power, more recoil, that they had to train extensively on to be comfortable with. If they used the method that he taught them. He taught them to drop to one knee and rapid fire as fast as possible directly at the groin. According to his explanation this did several things. First it dropped the person below the perps line of fire, it caused a psychological recoil in the perp,(imagine seeing someone with a gun aimed at your most vulnerable spot!). And he went on to explain the groin is one of the softest areas on the front of the body. Easily penetrated by small caliber bullets, and the thing that makes it an affective tactic for self defense is the shape of the hip bones. The curvature of the large hip bones acts to deflect the bullets entering the soft tissue and send them directly upwards into the body cavity. The majority of the rounds are going to ricochet upwards off of the hip bones and shred the vital organs above.

    So I don't agree with dismissing small caliber weapons for self defense. And these keyboard experts who slam someone for mentioning it are only demonstrating there own lack of knowledge on how to effectively utilize one.

    I wouldn't recommend a small caliber weapon if something more powerful was available. But I certainly wouldn't feel helpless and ineffective because I had one. It all comes down to training, training, training.
    The most man stopping weapon made is no more than club in the hands of someone who hasn't learned how to use it effectively.
    ColtCarbine and BTPost like this.
  4. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Adventure Riding Monkey Founding Member

    First, one must realise that Self Defense and Survivalism are two related but different things.
    The 10-22 or other .22LR rifle is generally suggested from the point of view of a small game hunting weapon. Ideally, one would also be carrying a good defensive handgun.
  5. BigAggie06

    BigAggie06 Monkey+

    Thanks for the good responses guys. I was just trying to reconcile the gun forum talk ".22 is just for fun" to a couple of post I have seen on here saying "need to add a couple of .22's". I had assumed the primary reason for the recommendation was for small game but needed to confirm.

    Also, good info on small caliber SD tactics ... I will have to look around town to see if there is anyone who will provide training like that for the Mrs.

    Thanks everyone.
  6. Gray Wolf

    Gray Wolf Monkey+++

    It depends on the situation. If you are bugging out on foot, that limits what you can carry. If resupply is not likely for a long time, a .22 makes sense to me. If you are bugging in, you have a lot more options, and a .22 is still a useful tool.
  7. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    It's better than a rock, but not my first choice. In the trained hand it can be a deadly weapon, but I would think that in a SHTF scenario it would primarily be used for taking small game.
  8. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

  9. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Easy. Many large game have been taken with a .22. Adapt and overcome.
    Get an armed band of 12 or more hunters with .22LR ---> it makes for a very lightweight, efficient, possibly silent (if you know how to...and CAN) fighting force. One could outfit a fighting force with very little investment; for 20 rifles and ammunition, you are looking at about $2000. That's maybe 2 AR-15's and some ammo if you are lucky most days. If you don't think it's a deadly rifle, have your friend pop off a few rounds at you sometime. Well, what are you waiting for? That's what I thought. Common sense applies. It's all in the way you USE IT.

    Would you want a different caliber rifle if possible? Maybe.
    Mountainman likes this.
  10. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    If some gets shot with a .22, all they will know is that they have been SHOT, they are bleeding, and it hurts. It's probably going to tumble inside them too. I have a Buckmark Micro pistol in my 'get home' bag with 400 rounds and two mags. I can carry a lot of ammo, and I can hit a eight inch group at 100 yds with it. It will take small game if I run out of BOB food. My defense pistol is a .45 at home.
  11. fortunateson

    fortunateson I hate Illinois Nazis!

    It can put a hole through you.
    Most people forget that fine point.
  12. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    So can a spike fired from an air powered cannon. "Can" being the operable word, and feasibility being an idea somewhat acquainted with reality. A .22 is a FINE weapon, if that is what you like. As with anything, YMMV.
  13. fortunateson

    fortunateson I hate Illinois Nazis!

    I need one of those.
  14. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    If i was going to move in that direction with a small calibre.... i might consider a .22 mag ammo is almost as light.... still relatively cheap... and has a little better stopping power... due to my employer i'm limited as to what i can carry... and a .22 pistol is better than nothing... just saying....
  15. fedorthedog

    fedorthedog Monkey++

    .22 kills more people in this country than most other, if not all other calibers. I get a kick out of the penetration argument .22 will go deeper than a lot of other rounds simple physics less resistance due to smaller mass but it may not due as much damage due to less mass. I have fired into body Armour and was very surprised to see how deep the .22 went where 45 acp ball just dimpled the first layer.

    I also teach women to shoot with .22 and like small caliber pistols for easy of concealed carry. If you cant get them to carry a gun because it is to big, all the training in the world is useless.

    As to a a primary defensive rifle I would use a .22 if I had to but would perfer an AR or AK. I still tell people to buy the .22 first because of the ability to become outfits with a rifle mag and a couple thousand rounds cheaply. Once you have that you move up. You keep the .22 because you wife or child can use it if your not and others may arrive unarmed and something is better than nothing.
  16. Wolfgang2000

    Wolfgang2000 Monkey++

    I have a fair amount of experience in firearms. Small arms repair in the Army, 28 years as a LEO, SRT armorer etc. I seen a lot of people that have been shot. As a LEO I've witnessed over a dozen people shot. I've been on hundreds of murder scenes. My Wife (also a retired LEO) Was a "CSI" for 20 years, that gave me access to autopsy photos and reports. No I don't consider myself an expert, just a knowledgeable person it the field, with a certain amount of real life experience.

    First everybody should own a 22 LR rifle and pistol. They are great small game getters an a inexpensive way to practice.

    I've heard people bloviate about the 22 and 1 ammo can of ammo. If that is your choice so be it. I know some people (usually female) that won't shoot anything but a 22. That beats a mean look. But ask yourself some questions.

    If the 22 LR so good of a stopper why isn't the police snipers using it? The average shot is only 50 yards. That Marine Col., if he was back in the sand box would he swap his M16 for a 10-22? If not, WHY.

    I do believe that 1 hit with a 22 beats 6 misses with a 44 mag. But we have to put it into perspective. I saw one person (an EDP) take a 38spl behind the left ear and take 1 1/2 steps. I've see a BG take a load of 00 buck in the chest at at point blank range and fight the cop for the shotgun. At autopsy he didn't even have a heart, his body was dead and his brain didn't know it. I could go on the point is simple. SOME PEOPLE JUST DIE HARD!!!!! I was at one scene where a young male had been shot in the chest by his girl friend. This was with a 22 rifle in an apartment, so close range. This "kid" ran 3 blocks to call the police from a pay phone. The kid did die,later. But it was like 30 mins. after being shot. If he had decided to fight instead of run, what kind of shape would the shooter had been in?

    The Col. was actually pulling an old trick. In the training tape "Surviving Edge Weapons" They point out that if a person is 21 feet or less away, MOST people can't draw and fire at the assailant in time. That is 7 yards!

    The average 22 rifle is effect from 25 to 50 yards. That is handgun range. Remember the Hollywood shootout in 94? Cops with hand guns and shotguns went up against BG's with (mostly) AK's. Cops effective range 50 yard, BG's effective range 300 meters!!

    Bottom line, you don't have to shoot normal people. "Most" of the time they will be on some sort of of intoxicant or in the case of an EDP adrenalin, OR ALL OF THE ABOVE! It's a good possibility you will have multiple attackers, all of them juiced up!

    Now if you want to trust your life and that of your family to the 22LR to save a few bucks, that is your business. Me, I want something with a little more punch. Remember that are no do overs in life.
  17. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I may not have made the story clear. My Marine buddy wasn't advocating using the .22 for self defense. He always recommended more stopping power. He used the .22 as a starter and moved women up from there if they were willing. His training was for the situation where that was all you had.

    I think we all agree that the .22, rifle and pistol, is an ideal survival weapon. The taking of small game, light weight, large volume of ammo that can be carried, all these make it one tool that I think every survival arsenal should have. And it is a great starting point for any shooter. Cheap ammo means more practice, no recoil means children and women who will shoot a .22 that are afraid of anything larger. And I think any one familiar with firearms, whether and expert or just casual shooter would recommend using the most effective caliber you are comfortable with and training with it.

    My point in relating the story of my buddy was that he surprised me when I couldn't get a laser on him before he "Killed" me with his little pocket pistol. And surprising was the way that he taught to employ a .22 or small caliber rifle (if that's what you had). I had never heard that or seen it taught anywhere else before. Another point he raised in our conversation was a tactic to use in a home/retreat type of defense. Employ the men with the battle rifles in a front line defense but arm the women and capable children with the .22 rifles and pistols. Place them behind cover as a last line of defense. If any of the ZOMBIES make it past the men, they run into a hail of rapid .22 fire. Now they may not drop dead in two steps, but it may well be equivalent to running into a swarm of angry hornets. I don't know too many people, drunk or sober who wouldn't turn tail and run.

    I was commenting more towards the guy in the OP who was being slammed on another forum for mentioning the use of a .22 as a SHTF weapon. I don't think any of us would recommend it, but if that's what you have learn to use it effectively. A .22 semi auto rifle and a .45 pistol would be more than adequate in most situations if you were only trying to avoid trouble and survive. To paraphrase, you don't go to war with the army you wish you had, you go to war with the army you have.
    BTPost likes this.
  18. Wolfgang2000

    Wolfgang2000 Monkey++

    Minuteman, I wasn't knocking the Col. or the 22LR. The 22 has a revered place in my personal gun collection. "IF" TSHTF, and I had a choice of arming them with a sharp stick or a 22, the 22 would win out. But I wouldn't use a 22 to replace a rifle with more power. Heck I believe you can still Mosin Nagants in the $100.00 to $150.00 range, and the ammo is cheap also.

    I also use the 22 LR to break in new shooters. As previously stated the 22 has a valued place in my collection. I won't even go into how many ammo can I have full of 22 LR. Lets just say it's more than 1.

    The trick was rushing you the way he did. I call it a trick because anyone that has been though weapon retention or knife defense class knows it. HOWEVER IT IS STILL A VALUABLE LESSON /TEACHING POINT. I did it to every rookie I trained. The point is that your situational awareness has to be going all the time. When the threat hits the 7 yard mark you have better had made your 2 major decisions. Fight or flight, kill or be killed. It also shows that some times the best responce is not the gun, but something else. Cover, hand to hand etc.

    I too, carry a Kel-Tec 32 for a back up/get off me gun. There has even been times that I could only carry the 32. But I've never considered it a replacement for my normal carry guns.
  19. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Please bear in mind that the 7 yard thing works for the fit and quick. I want 12 (or more) yards in my condition, and I'll already have my mind made up if I've picked up on the threat level.
  20. Wolfgang2000

    Wolfgang2000 Monkey++

    I agree whole heartily ghrit.
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