Need Suggestions

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by CraftyMofo, May 20, 2009.

  1. CraftyMofo

    CraftyMofo Monkey+++

    Da wife has decided to take the course for a CCW. I think it would be nice to get her something to celebrate!

    She will be taking the class with a P22 to get used to a semiauto. She has a Ruger New Vaquero in .45LC that I reload light loads for. She uses it 3-4 times a year for fun plinking targets.

    I'm thinking a 9mm in a compact package. I'd like some Monkey suggestions on a few models we could start looking at. I don't foresee this as a daily carry arm, more of a house gun.

  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    IMHO I would suggest you look at Ruger products and Taurus Products. Dollar for dollar you get a quality firearm and more bang for your buck. Sticker Shock on firearms of all types, plus an overstuffed Gunsafe have curtailed any new purchases for me. But, these two Companies, and their products have never failed me. Are there better more expensive pistols out there? Probably, but why spend the extra money, unless money is no problem, no way. Can you buy a cheaper acceptable firearm..... Maybe, but I am sure about every Ruger or Taurus I own. Good luck!
  3. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    Bersa is another brand that can equal Ruger or Tarus with quality and price. All three offer a compact 9mm for CCW.

    As a side note, there will probably be others that will recommend Kel-Tec. What I personaly seen with KelTec's is that some will work flawlessly, while other units of the same model belong in a trash can. Do not take your chances with Kel-Tec.
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    +1 on Ruger. They are built like a vault, and absolutely dependable. Downside is weight for carry, but perfect for a house gun. I've heard good words on Bersa, especially for carry. No experience with Taurus.
  5. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    I'll add my number to the Ruger Fan Club (I prefer revolvers to SA's).
  6. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I hear quite a few complaints about the customer service of Taurus, but I have not witnessed it firsthand. I have however witnessed that some of the Taurus semi-auto's need a lot of breaking in before they are reliable. Lots of FTF, FTF within the first 500 or so rounds.

    I am really sold on the Springfield XD. I believe there are also a few other monkeys here that are sold on them also. While I still have revolvers, and I love my 1911s, the XDs are just rock solid reliable. They are easy to operate, easy to disassemble and clean, and I have found that for me, they are easier to shoot accurately, and they are more accurate than many other brands, including Glocks. I like the 1911 like grip safety, and grip angle, and the ease of disassembly, internal safety, and trigger safety of the Glock. They are truly the best of both worlds. To me, they shoot more like a 1911, but have the capacity of a Glock. They can be found new for $500, maybe a little more, or a little less depending upon barrel length, cailber, and model. I for one though am thoroughly impressed with the product. They have a lot of excellent features, loaded chamber indicator, point and shoot ergonomics, lightweight, and up to 19+1 capacity in the XDM 9mm.

    Now while $500 seems like a lot for a pistol, and $500 is a chunk of change, I wouldn't skimp on saving a $100 or $200 in exchange for something that I would depend my life upon. A buddy of mine who shot my XDs and really liked them, wanted to save that extra $150 or so, and now his Taurus 24/7 will not fire consistently or reliably. I have told him several times that I hope he doesn't have to use it in an emergency. Now I am not bashing Taurus, I am sure they do make some fine handguns, especially their revolvers, but I am just giving you my personal experience and advice. I trust the XD enough that it is what my wife carries, all five foot two of her, and in .45. When my daughter's all become 21, then they also will get their own brand new XD.

    Here is the torture test that was conducted on the XD.


    Trial by fire: 20,000 rounds are put through Springfield Armory's XD.

    By Chaim Stein

    [​IMG]Torture testing didn't even start until the XD had 17,500 rounds through it. The ammo weighed around 600 pounds.
    "A wannabe Glock."
    That was my first thought after laying eyes on Springfield Armory's XD9 pistol. Closer inspection of the slide revealed the words "Made in Croatia." Those are words that, when stamped on the slide of a handgun, aren't known to inspire the consumer's confidence.
    I did not want to like this gun. I've always been a strong Glock fan, and it annoyed me that yet another company wanted to jump on the polymer bandwagon with a rehash of old concepts and designs. Despite that, one has to take notice when that company is Springfield Armory. Known for quality products, lifetime guarantees and fine customer service, Springfield Armory's name stamped on the other side of the slide does inspire confidence.
    The more I looked at this gun, the more I found myself comparing it to a Glock. The trigger safeties are very similar, but the XD's trigger is made of metal. Its sights are metal, too. The XD also has a superior trigger pull. The grip angle is improved, which enables more intuitive target acquisition for most shooters.

    The XD throws some new features into the mix, too: a 1911-style grip safety, a loaded-chamber indicator atop the slide and a cocked indicator protruding from the rear of the slide. Notwithstanding the XD's new features, there are obvious similarities to a Glock, both cosmetically and mechanically. It's these similarities that lead to the inevitable question: Is the XD as good as a Glock? I was fortunate enough to be able to answer this question (at least partially) by arranging a 20,000-round "torture test" of an XD9. To keep this test honest, Springfield Armory encouraged me to use a randomly selected XD for evaluation. That would ensure that Springfield didn't hand-pick an "extra special" model for evaluation.

    [​IMG]The author tossing brass en route to an endurance record for Springfield Armory's polymer powerhouse.
    So instead of having a pistol shipped directly from Springfield, I purchased a random specimen from my local firearms dealer. The street price at the time of this writing was about $70 to $100 below an equivalent Glock. The ammo we used for the test was all 115 grain, half from PMC and half from Federal's American Eagle.
    Because of a familiarity with huge numbers, maybe 20,000 rounds of ammunition doesn't seem like much. So let's put it in perspective. If you were to pull the trigger on your handgun once every minute--that's 24 hours a day, seven days a week--it would take you more than 333 hours, or about 14 days, until you reached 20,000. In their boxes, 20,000 cartridges weigh about 600 pounds. Just the projectiles (each at 115 grains, or just over a quarter-ounce) weigh a combined total of 329 pounds. If you were to fire 20,000 rounds at a rate of one box of 50 cartridges per week, every week, it would take you almost eight years.
    I think we can all agree that 20,000 rounds is a whole lot of ammo, far more than the average handgun owner is likely to put through any single handgun in a lifetime of shooting. We did it in less than seven months.
    Popping 20,000 rounds through a handgun is a decent test of longevity, but it does not really tell us about durability and reliability under adverse conditions. So to learn more about what this gun is capable of, we replicated the Glock USA 1,000-round torture test. But instead of performing it with a new gun, we began the tests only after we'd put 17,500 rounds through the gun.
    Shots Fired
    When the XD's first range day finally arrived, it conveniently coincided with an incredibly fun local match called Steel Madness, where all competitors shoot only at reactive steel targets throughout the match. To break in the new XD, I simply removed the almost un-lubed pistol from its box and shot all five stages of the match.

    [​IMG]Mmm, good! Gunsicles anyone? The XD was unaffected by such harsh treatment.
    During that first shooting session, it quickly became apparent that it is especially easy to shoot with the XD. In fact, toward the end of the match, one of my friends put away his Glock and used my XD. Despite owning a Glock for 10 years and having no prior familiarity with the XD, his shooting immediately improved. This same experience was repeated with many shooters throughout the test.
    After about 250 rounds in the dusty, windy conditions at Raahauge's range in Southern California, the gun had acquired a fair amount of sand and grit in its action. Despite this, the excellent trigger became noticeably smoother after the first 150 rounds. Despite the rather serious handicap of accumulated grit without the benefit of lubrication, the XD functioned flawlessly.
    The trigger seemed to lighten up again at around 2,400 rounds and became even smoother. The trigger doesn't have to cock and release the striker as does a Glock's trigger. On the XD, the trigger simply releases the striker, making for a much crisper, lighter pull. There is a long first stage, but once the slack is taken up, the trigger breaks very cleanly. Almost everyone involved in the testing felt that the trigger pull, coupled with the metal trigger, is an improvement over other polymer pistols.

    [​IMG]The worst effect of the mud was that when the XD was extracted from this puddle, shaken (not stirred) and fired, it sprayed everyone around it. Not a big crowd pleaser, but it kept on ticking without a hitch.
    At roughly 7,000 rounds, I dropped the XD hard, onto cement, from a height of about 3 1/2 feet, right onto its cocking indicator. I then dropped it several more times, loaded, while standing behind cover in a completely safe environment. And I even threw it off the side of a mountain, sending it bouncing and hurtling down the steep slope about 100 feet.
    At about 10,000 rounds, I noticed that the cocking indicator had broken off. While the breakage was disappointing, this piece (or lack thereof) in no way interferes with the functioning of the gun; its absence was hardly noticed.
    Since we had 25 magazines, we could fire up to 250 rounds in rapid succession, magazine after magazine. And so we did, on a number of occasions. The barrel and slide, and even the trigger, would get painfully hot to the touch, and water would literally boil and evaporate off the slide on contact. I did this several times before--and once after--the torture tests. Still, the XD kept on running.
    The XD's three-dot sights were replaced with an early working prototype of the SureSight, a fast-acquisition handgun sight I developed. This was the only modification made to the firearm throughout the entire test. And yes, it did help to increase shooting speed.
    Torture Tests Begin
    At 17,500 rounds, after giving the XD only the bare minimum in terms of maintenance, I decided to start the torture tests. Until this point, maintenance consisted of short, one- to three-minute cleaning sessions, wiping the XD's feed ramp, brushing its extractor and running a bore snake through the barrel. This was performed approximately every 750 to 1,500 rounds.
    It became obvious early on that the XD's design makes maintaining this pistol remarkably quick and easy. Only twice did the gun get what I consider a serious cleaning--once at 10,000 rounds and again at 17,500, before the torture test began. In all that time the gun didn't malfunction once.
    Glock's 1,000-round torture test consists of six different trials, listed below. We did not follow the specific details precisely, but we approximated them very closely. We actually fired a bit more--about 1,100 rounds--in our torture test.
    The Ice Test. We filled a tub with water, dropped in the XD with a magazine and put it in the freezer for a week. Breaking it free by dropping the "gunsicle" onto concrete, we let it thaw out on the way to the Oak Tree Gun Club, our favorite outdoor handgun range. Upon arrival, we inserted a fresh magazine into the XD and fired. We fired about 150 rounds before wiping it down and lubricating it. Result: zero malfunctions.
    The Dirt Test. Following the lead of the Glock tests, the XD was "caked, covered and buried alive in soils of varying consistencies." We used everything from dust and ash to moist dirt and sand. We fired 100 rounds after subjecting the XD to each of the five kinds of dirt, for a total of 500 rounds. Predictably, sand proved the most challenging to its mechanism. After burying the gun in sand, then stepping on it to grind it in, we took it out to shoot. The slide cycled noticeably slower, but the gun never jammed. Result: zero malfunctions.
    The Mud Test. The XD was covered with thick, gritty mud. After a quick shaking off, it was fired 100 times. Mud went everywhere from the recoil, mostly on the shooters, some on bystanders--it was amazing how much sprayed off the gun. Still, the gun kept working. Result: zero malfunctions.
    The Water Test. Fully loaded, the XD was left completely submerged, removed from the water and fired. This was repeated 10 times, firing 10 rounds each for a total of 100 rounds. Result: zero malfunctions.
    The Chemical Degreaser Test. Using GunScrubber, all lubricant was removed from the firearm. After making sure there wasn't any lubricant remaining on the firearm, the gun was fired. Glock's test fired 100 rounds. We fired 150. Result: zero malfunctions.
    The Tire Test. We placed the XD on a gravel surface, then had shooting champion Mike Dalton drive his Toyota Tundra repeatedly over it, then park on the weapon. We then retrieved and fired it 100 times. Result: zero malfunctions.
    With the torture tests behind us, I fired the remaining 1,400 rounds with no failures of any kind.
    Damned impressive. Of course the Glock (and other guns, as well) should be able to handle this kind of abuse. The point of this test wasn't to diminish any existing brand but to get a picture of the capabilities of the XD, which is a relatively new product. I completed this test with a great deal of admiration for this handgun. So much so, in fact, that it is now my nightstand gun. More than 20,000 rounds later, with no failures to feed or fire and hardly any wear to the gun's finish, I have no trouble whatsoever betting my safety on its performance.

    [​IMG]Sand definitely slowed down the XD, but the gun never jammed. Shooters can count on this Croatian workhorse to function whenever, and wherever, it is needed.
    What started out as a simple 4-inch-barreled 9mm service pistol has grown rapidly into an entire family of pistols. Springfield now offers more than 18 models, so there is an XD for just about everyone. The pistols can be had in four calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig and .45 GAP), three barrel lengths (the 3-inch Compact, the 4-inch Service and the 5-inch Tactical) and in a choice of black or olive-drab frame with black or stainless slide. Ported barrels are available with some models.
    Mark Twain once wrote, "A thing long expected takes the form of the unexpected when at last it comes." And so it is with the Springfield XD. Before the XD's arrival, who would have expected that Springfield Armory would import--from Croatia, of all places--a handgun that is now well on its way to establishing its place among the outstanding handguns of modern times?
    Chaim Stein is the inventor of the SureSight, which is manufactured and marketed by TRUGLO. He is a firearms instructor and a veteran of an Israeli army combat unit. For more information, contact
  7. Flip853

    Flip853 Monkey++

    I'll second that on the XD. I have the XD tactical in .40, the service in .40, the sub compact in 9mm, and my latest purchase the XDM service in .40. While the XDM in nice for it's capacity the ladies of the house may not be able to rap their hands around it. Springfield IMHO is one of the few great mfg's left. Their customer service is outstanding and I'll put my tactical XD up against a $1200 Kimber tactical pro 2 any day of the week.

    Kel-tec... been there to, shot it and sold it.
  8. oregonshooter

    oregonshooter Monkey++

    If the gun fits, buy a Glock.

    If the Glock won't fit and you don't want to do a grip reduction, look at the Kahr line.
  9. kckndrgn

    kckndrgn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    My wife shoots (and loves) her XD 9mm subcompact. She tried every 9mm in our ranges rental cabinet, when she shot the XD she looked at me and said "This is the one you're buying for me!"

    She now has the XDM in 9mm as well, it's the only full size gun she really likes.
  10. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    My wife also has the XD 9 sub-compact. She has a laser-light attachment and keeps it by the bed. She loves it too. She was not a shooter and this was her first firearm. I have the XD .45, you can't go wrong with them.
  11. Galactus

    Galactus Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I can not believe I am the first to recommend getting a herald, similar to my Silver Surfer for personal defense, errands, and miscellaneous chores around the galaxy.
  12. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    Galactus, What the hell are you talking about?[dunno]
  13. CraftyMofo

    CraftyMofo Monkey+++

    Thanks for all the replies. I took my wife out to the range with the P22, then dinner, and a quick trip to a local gun store. I was a bit surprised to see ZERO Glocks on the shelf, ZERO XDs.

    Fortunately, it wasn't too busy, so she handled each 9mm they had in the case. If memory serves:
    S & W M&P
    S & W M&P Compact
    Sig 226
    FN FNP-9
    Glock G23
    Ruger P89?

    She wouldn't touch anything with PINK on it. Thought it was funny, she said it was kind of degrading. Her favorite from this group was the FNP-9. I plan to take her out more, and let her decide. I'll let you guys know the final verdict when it's in!
  14. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Crafty, I have the SIG 226 should Mrs. Crafty want to sample for a weekend.
  15. Galactus

    Galactus Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Silly Noobie.

    Far more effective than firearms.
  16. QuietOne

    QuietOne Monkey++

    While all these are fine weapons I've always liked the idea of a revolver as a house gun. No springs to set, no "conditions" to worry about; just load it, stuff it in a sock and it's just as ready in ten years as it is when you put it away. 2 points:
    Keep a flashlight near the gun, and
    If there are any kids or other "unauthorized" persons who are in the house keep the gun LOCKED with a lock that can be opened silently in the dark.

    Galactus, here's a resource you should seriously examine before TSHTF:
  17. magnus392

    magnus392 Field Marshall Mags Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I don't know that I would try to match wits with someone that posts as a huge alien in a pink helmet. [booze]
  18. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    Whatever Galactus, do me a favor.... ignore me, i'll ignore you and we should get along fine. For the sake of arguement since on this forum, yes I am a newbie, I will research some of your archived posts. Maybe I am the one in la la land and you are the most omnipotent galactic being on the face of this earth. Frankly however, I read your flood of post replys before I said what I had to say about you. I think you are delusional to say the least. I stand by what I said!!! [beat]
  19. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    The more you speak to Galactus the more he seems to speak to you. And, Galactus is always full of Scheiβe!
  20. Galactus

    Galactus Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Fear not noobie, I do not hold your noobness against you. Nor will I ignore you.
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