new AWB... soon to be passed I'm sure

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by melbo, Dec 11, 2005.


  1. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Actually mention Bushmaster XM-15 this time around


    109TH CONGRESS
    S. 645
    1ST SESSION


    To reinstate the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection
    Act.

    IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
    MARCH 16, 2005
    Mr. LAUTENBERG (for himself, Mr. CORZINE, Mr. SCHUMER, Mrs. BOXER,
    Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. DURBIN, Ms. MIKULSKI, Mr. SARBANES, Mr. REED,
    Mr. AKAKA, Mr. DODD, and Mrs. CLINTON) introduced the following bill;
    which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


    A BILL
    To reinstate the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms
    Use Protection Act.

    1 Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representa-
    2 tives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
    3 SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    4 This Act may be cited as the ``Assault Weapons Ban
    5 and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2005''.
    2
    1 SEC. 2. RESTRICTION ON MANUFACTURE, TRANSFER, AND

    2 POSSESSION OF CERTAIN SEMIAUTOMATIC

    3 ASSAULT WEAPONS.

    4 (a) RESTRICTION.--Section 922 of title 18, United
    5 States Code, is amended by adding after subsection (u)
    6 the following:
    7 ``(v)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufac-
    8 ture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.
    9 ``(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession
    10 or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise
    11 lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of enact-
    12 ment of this subsection.
    13 ``(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to any firearm
    14 that--
    15 ``(A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, level,
    16 or slide action;
    17 ``(B) has been rendered permanently inoperable;
    18 or
    19 ``(C) is an antique firearm.
    20 ``(4) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to--
    21 ``(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or pos-
    22 session by the United States or a department or
    23 agency of the United States or a State or a depart-
    24 ment, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or
    25 a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement of-


    S 645 IS
    3
    1 ficer employed by such an entity for purposes of law
    2 enforcement (whether on or off duty);
    3 ``(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of
    4 the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of es-
    5 tablishing and maintaining an onsite physical protec-
    6 tion system and security organization required by
    7 Federal law, or possession by an employee or con-
    8 tractor of such licensee onsite for such purposes or
    9 off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training
    10 or transportation of nuclear materials;
    11 ``(C) the possession, by an individual who is re-
    12 tired from service with a law enforcement agency
    13 and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving a fire-
    14 arm, of a semiautomatic assault weapon transferred
    15 to the individual by the agency upon such retire-
    16 ment; or
    17 ``(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession
    18 of a semiautomatic assault weapon by a licensed
    19 manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes
    20 of testing or experimentation authorized by the Sec-
    21 retary.
    22 ``(5) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer
    23 a semiautomatic assault weapon to which paragraph (1)
    24 does not apply, except through--




    S 645 IS
    4
    1 ``(A) a licensed dealer, and for purposes of sub-
    2 section (t) in the case of such a transfer, the weapon
    3 shall be considered to be transferred from the busi-
    4 ness inventory of the licensed dealer and the dealer
    5 shall be considered to be the transferor; or
    6 ``(B) a State or local law enforcement agency if
    7 the transfer is made in accordance with the proce-
    8 dures provided for in subsection (t) of this section
    9 and section 923(g).
    10 ``(6) The Attorney General shall establish and main-
    11 tain, in a timely manner, a record of the make, model,
    12 and date of manufacture of any semiautomatic assault
    13 weapon which the Attorney General is made aware has
    14 been used in relation to a crime under Federal or State
    15 law, and the nature and circumstances of the crime in-
    16 volved, including the outcome of relevant criminal inves-
    17 tigations and proceedings. The Attorney General shall an-
    18 nually submit the record to Congress and make the record
    19 available to the general public.''.
    20 (b) DEFINITION SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT
    OF

    21 WEAPON.--Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code,
    22 is amended by adding after paragraph (29) the following:
    23 ``(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon'
    24 means any of the following:




    S 645 IS
    5
    1 ``(A) RIFLES.--The following rifles or copies or
    2 duplicates thereof--
    3 ``(i) AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK74,
    4 ARM, MAK90, Misr, NHM 90, NHM 91, SA
    5 85, SA 93, VEPR;
    6 ``(ii) AR10;
    7 ``(iii) AR15, Bushmaster XM15, Armalite
    8 M15, or Olympic Arms PCR;
    9 ``(iv) AR70;
    10 ``(v) Calico Liberty;
    11 ``(vi) Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or
    12 Dragunov SVU;
    13 ``(vii) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/
    14 LAR, or FNC;
    15 ``(viii) Hi-Point Carbine;
    16 ``(ix) HK91, HK93, HK94, or HK
    17 PSG1;
    18 ``(x) Kel-Tec Sub Rifle;
    19 ``(xi) M1 Carbine;
    20 ``(xii) Saiga;
    21 ``(xiii) SAR8, SAR4800;
    22 ``(xiv) SKS with detachable magazine;
    23 ``(xv) SLG 95;
    24 ``(xvi) SLR 95 or 96;
    25 ``(xvii) Steyr AUG;


    S 645 IS
    6
    1 ``(xviii) Sturm, Ruger Mini14;
    2 ``(xix) Tavor;
    3 ``(xx) Thompson 1927, Thompson M1, or
    4 Thompson 1927 Commando; or
    5 ``(xxi) Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil
    6 Sporter, or Galil Sniper Rifle (Galatz).
    7 ``(B) PISTOLS.--The following pistols or copies
    8 or duplicates thereof--
    9 ``(i) Calico M110;
    10 ``(ii) MAC10, MAC11, or MPA3;
    11 ``(iii) Olympic Arms OA;
    12 ``(iv) TEC9, TECDC9, TEC22 Scor-
    13 pion, or AB10; or
    14 ``(v) Uzi.
    15 ``(C) SHOTGUNS.--The following shotguns or
    16 copies or duplicates thereof--
    17 ``(i) Armscor 30 BG;
    18 ``(ii) SPAS 12 or LAW 12;
    19 ``(iii) Striker 12; or
    20 ``(iv) Streetsweeper.
    21 ``(D) DETACHABLE RIFLES.--A
    MAGAZINE

    22 semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
    23 detachable magazine, and that has--
    24 ``(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
    25 ``(ii) a threaded barrel;


    S 645 IS
    7
    1 ``(iii) a pistol grip;
    2 ``(iv) a forward grip; or
    3 ``(v) a barrel shroud.
    4 ``(E) FIXED MAGAZINE RIFLES.--A semiauto-
    5 matic rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capac-
    6 ity to accept more than 10 rounds, except for an at-
    7 tached tubular device designed to accept, and capa-
    8 ble of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammu-
    9 nition.
    10 ``(F) DETACHABLE PISTOLS.--A
    MAGAZINE

    11 semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a
    12 detachable magazine, and has--
    13 ``(i) a second pistol grip;
    14 ``(ii) a threaded barrel;
    15 ``(iii) a barrel shroud; or
    16 ``(iv) the capacity to accept a detachable
    17 magazine at a location outside of the pistol
    18 grip.
    19 ``(G) FIXED MAGAZINE PISTOLS.--A semiauto-
    20 matic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the ca-
    21 pacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
    22 ``(H) SEMIAUTOMATIC SHOTGUNS.--A semi-
    23 automatic shotgun that has--
    24 ``(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
    25 ``(ii) a pistol grip;


    S 645 IS
    8
    1 ``(iii) the ability to accept a detachable
    2 magazine; or
    3 ``(iv) a fixed magazine capacity of more
    4 than 5 rounds.
    5 ``(I) OTHER SHOTGUNS.--A shotgun with a re-
    6 volving cylinder.
    7 ``(J) FRAMES OR RECEIVERS.--A frame or re-
    8 ceiver that is identical to, or based substantially on
    9 the frame or receiver of, a firearm described in any
    10 of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L).
    11 ``(K) CONVERSION KITS.--A conversion kit.
    12 ``(L) MILITARY OR LAW ENFORCMENT WEAP-

    13 ONS.--A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally
    14 designed for military or law enforcement use, or a
    15 firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that
    16 is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as
    17 determined by the Attorney General. In making the
    18 determination, there shall be a rebuttable presump-
    19 tion that a firearm procured for use by the United
    20 States military or any Federal law enforcement
    21 agency is not particularly suitable for sporting pur-
    22 poses, and a firearm shall not be determined to be
    23 particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely be-
    24 cause the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting
    25 event.''.


    S 645 IS
    9
    1 (c) PENALTIES.--
    2 (1) VIOLATION OF SECTION 922(v).--Section

    3 924(a)(1)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is
    4 amended by striking ``or (q) of section 922'' and in-
    5 serting ``(r), or (v) of section 922''.
    6 (2) USE OR POSSESSION DURING CRIME OF VIO-

    7 CRIME.--Section
    LENCE OR DRUG TRAFFICKING

    8 924(c)(1)(B)(i) of title 18, United States Code, is
    9 amended by inserting ``or semiautomatic assault
    10 weapon,'' after ``short-barreled shotgun,''.
    11 (d) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS SEMIAUTO-
    FOR

    12 ASSAULT WEAPONS.--Section 923(i) of title 18,
    MATIC

    13 United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the
    14 following: ``The serial number of any semiautomatic as-
    15 sault weapon manufactured after the date of the enact-
    16 ment of this sentence shall clearly show the date on which
    17 the weapon was manufactured.''.
    18 (e) RELATED DEFINITIONS.--Section 921(a) of such
    19 title is amended by adding at the end the following:
    20 ``(36) BARREL SHROUD.--The term `barrel shroud'
    21 means a shroud that is attached to, or partially or com-
    22 pletely encircles, the barrel of a firearm so that the shroud
    23 protects the user of the firearm from heat generated by
    24 the barrel, but does not include a slide that encloses the
    25 barrel, and does not include an extension of the stock


    S 645 IS
    10
    1 along the bottom of the barrel which does not encircle or
    2 substantially encircle the barrel.
    3 ``(37) CONVERSION KIT.--The term `conversion kit'
    4 means any part or combination of parts designed and in-
    5 tended for use in converting a firearm into a semiauto-
    6 matic assault weapon, and any combination of parts from
    7 which a semiautomatic assault weapon can be assembled
    8 if the parts are in the possession or under the control of
    9 a person.
    10 ``(38) DETACHABLE MAGAZINE.--The term `detach-
    11 able magazine' means an ammunition feeding device that
    12 can readily be inserted into a firearm.
    13 ``(39) FIXED MAGAZINE.--The term `fixed magazine'
    14 means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or per-
    15 manently attached to, a firearm.
    16 ``(40) FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK.--The term
    17 `folding or telescoping stock' means a stock that folds,
    18 telescopes, or otherwise operates to reduce the length, size,
    19 or any other dimension, or otherwise enhances the
    20 concealability, of a firearm.
    21 ``(41) FORWARD GRIP.--The term `forward grip'
    22 means a grip located forward of the trigger that functions
    23 as a pistol grip.




    S 645 IS
    11
    1 ``(42) PISTOL GRIP.--The term `pistol grip' means a
    2 grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that
    3 can function as a grip.
    4 ``(43) THREADED BARREL.--The term `threaded bar-
    5 rel' means a feature or characteristic that is designed in
    6 such a manner to allow for the attachment of a firearm
    7 as defined in section 5845(a) of the National Firearms
    8 Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(a)).''.
    9 SEC. 3. BAN OF LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING

    10 DEVICES.

    11 (a) PROHIBITION.--Section 922 of title 18, United
    12 States Code, as amended by section 2(a), is amended by
    13 adding after subsection (v) the following:
    14 ``(w)(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B),
    15 it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess
    16 a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
    17 ``(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to the posses-
    18 sion or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding
    19 device otherwise lawfully possessed in the United States
    20 on the date of enactment of this subsection.
    21 ``(2) It shall be unlawful for any person to import
    22 or bring into the United States a large capacity ammuni-
    23 tion feeding device.
    24 ``(3) This subsection shall not apply to--




    S 645 IS
    12
    1 ``(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or pos-
    2 session by the United States or a department or
    3 agency of the United States or a State or a depart-
    4 ment, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or
    5 a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement of-
    6 ficer employed by such an entity for purposes of law
    7 enforcement (whether on or off duty);
    8 ``(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of
    9 the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of es-
    10 tablishing and maintaining an onsite physical protec-
    11 tion system and security organization required by
    12 Federal law, or possession by an employee or con-
    13 tractor of such licensee onsite for such purposes or
    14 off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training
    15 or transportation of nuclear materials; or
    16 ``(C) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of
    17 any large capacity ammunition feeding device by a
    18 licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the
    19 purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by
    20 the Secretary.
    21 ``(4) It shall be unlawful for a licensed manufacturer,
    22 licensed importer, or licensed dealer who transfers a large
    23 capacity ammunition feeding device that was manufac-
    24 tured on or before the date of enactment of this sub-
    25 section, to fail to certify to the Attorney General before


    S 645 IS
    13
    1 the end of the 60-day period that begins with the date
    2 of the transfer, in accordance with regulations prescribed
    3 by the Attorney General, that the device was manufac-
    4 tured on or before the date of enactment of this sub-
    5 section.''.
    6 (b) DEFINITION LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION
    OF

    7 FEEDING DEVICE.--Section 921(a) of title 18, United
    8 States Code, as amended by section 2(b), is amended by
    9 adding after paragraph (30) the following:
    10 ``(31) The term `large capacity ammunition feeding
    11 device'--
    12 ``(A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip,
    13 or similar device that has a capacity of, or that can
    14 be readily restored or converted to accept, more than
    15 10 rounds of ammunition; but
    16 ``(B) does not include an attached tubular de-
    17 vice designed to accept, and capable of operating
    18 only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.''.
    19 (c) PENALTY.--Section 924(a)(1)(B) of title 18,
    20 United States Code, as amended by section 2(c), is amend-
    21 ed by striking ``or (v)'' and inserting ``(v), or (w)''.
    22 (d) IDENTIFICATION MARKINGS LARGE CAPAC-
    FOR

    23 AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES.--Section 923(i) of
    ITY

    24 title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 2(d),
    25 is amended by adding at the end the following: ``A large


    S 645 IS
    14
    1 capacity ammunition feeding device manufactured after
    2 the date of the enactment of this sentence shall be identi-
    3 fied by a serial number that clearly shows that the device
    4 was manufactured or imported after the effective date of
    5 this subsection, and such other identification as the Attor-
    6 ney General may by regulation prescribe.
    7 (e) BAN ON TRANSFER OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT
    8 WEAPON WITH LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING
    9 DEVICE.--
    10 (1) IN GENERAL.--Section 922 of title 18,
    11 United States Code, is amended by inserting at the
    12 end the following:
    13 ``(z) It shall be unlawful for any person to transfer
    14 any assault weapon with a large capacity ammunition
    15 feeding device.''.
    16 (2) PENALTIES.--Section 924(a) of title 18,
    17 United States Code, is amended by adding at the
    18 end the following:
    19 ``(8) Whoever knowingly violates section 922(z) shall
    20 be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10
    21 years, or both.
    22 ``(9) Whoever knowingly violates section 922(w)(4)
    23 shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than
    24 5 years, or both.''.




    S 645 IS
    15
    1 SEC. 4. STUDY BY ATTORNEY GENERAL.

    2 (a) STUDY.--The Attorney General shall investigate
    3 and study the effect of this Act and the amendments made
    4 by this Act, and in particular shall determine their impact,
    5 if any, on violent and drug trafficking crime. The study
    6 shall be conducted over a period of 18 months, com-
    7 mencing 12 months after the date of enactment of this
    8 Act.
    9 (b) REPORT.--Not later than 30 months after the
    10 date of enactment of this Act, the Attorney General shall
    11 prepare and submit to Congress a report setting forth in
    12 detail the findings and determinations made in the study
    13 under subsection (a).
    14 SEC. 5. UNLAWFUL WEAPONS TRANSFERS TO JUVENILES.

    15 Section 922(x) of title 18, United States Code, is
    16 amended--
    17 (1) in paragraph (1)--
    18 (A) in subparagraph (B), by striking the
    19 period and inserting a semicolon; and
    20 (B) by adding at the end the following:
    21 ``(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or
    22 ``(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding de-
    23 vice.''; and
    24 (2) in paragraph (2)--
    25 (A) in subparagraph (B), by striking the
    26 period and inserting a semicolon; and
    S 645 IS
    16
    1 (B) by adding at the end the following:
    2 ``(C) a semiautomatic assault weapon; or
    3 ``(D) a large capacity ammunition feeding de-
    4 vice.''.
    5 SEC. 6. EFFECTIVE DATE.

    6 This Act and the amendments made by this Act shall
    7 take effect on the date of enactment of this Act.
     
  2. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I don't see it happening. The democrapic leadership is doing this to charge their far left idiot voters, but the majority knows this is the kiss of death, as clinton even stated after the massive defeat of democraps in congress.
     
  3. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Republicans are just as much to blame as Democrats. They are both working for the same people, and they are both pushing for world government.

    If a person doesn't listen to honorable men such as Ron Paul and realize that we need more people like him in office, then we are doomed. These bills are many times bipartisan and are pushed for the reason to condition people, not always to pass them into law.

    Gun control and confiscation will occur eventually. It's only a matter of time.

    Prepare.
     
  4. Cousin Jack

    Cousin Jack Knifemaker Founding Member

    It is truely ironic...legislation such as this only succeeds in doing the complete opposite of what the gov't intended.

    The demand for guns, such as the AK-47, has never been greater than when Klinton and the other gun grabbers tried to outlaw them....Hell, most people would never have given the AK a second look until the bed-wetting pansies in Washington took notice, and deemed them as "evil" Boo-Waa-Haa Haa!
     
  5. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well since they conveniently even left out the term 'semi automatic' in this part that would mean that if it came in front of them then even the old Winchester leaver guns would be considered assault weapons since they were designed for the military, not to mention the old .45/70s. Then most of the rest once again relyes on cosmetics. Yet more stupidity from the beurocraps, and this after it was already revealed that the first one did nothing for crime rates other than somewhat of an increase! :evil: I need to get more money so I can get my mini 14 and a bunch of big mags for it and my 10/22.
     
  6. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    yes indeed
     
  7. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    Time to prepare the cache? Where and how will you do it? Only half of the most important arms get cached, I should think. And, if at all possible, the cached items should not be traceable to you. Private sales sounds a pretty good way to acquire the necessaries for "burial."

    New thread for this maybe?
     
  8. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    just be sure to leave a few bones for them to collect when they come for them.
     
  9. 155gunner

    155gunner Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Republikrats and Demicans are what I call them, no difference between the two. I heard a good quote today by Pat Buchanan about this, " The Republicans and Democrats are two wings of the same bird of prey."

    I think that puts the parties in the proper perspective.
     
  10. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    They are the Same crap different pile is how i heard it. :eek: :D
     
  11. magnus392

    magnus392 Field Marshall Mags Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    And people look at me funny for liking my AK's....simple weapon to operate, maintain, and will go bang everytime. From my Cold Dead hands!
     
  12. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well, at least now thanks to you all I have one of them that wouldnt be able to get after the ban and would undoubtedly not have been able to get otherwise.
     
  13. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    ghrit.
    I think a thread on Cache-ing is in order.

    I bought some Silver from a guy the other night. He told me he'd get back to me on the other that I want in the Spring... need to wait for a thaw to get to it.
     
  14. magnus392

    magnus392 Field Marshall Mags Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Smear an AK with some cosmo and bury the thing in a tube with a but stock cleaning kit. dig it up, wipe the cosmo off, and run the brush down the barrel...insert mag and go boom.
     
  15. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    it is passed time that we quit whinning and actually did something. This government monster is our own doing; our government is still "of the people, by the people, and for the people" and we are some of the best armed people there is. Why haven't we introduced counter legislation, maybe a bill requiring recognition of our Bill of Rights? supercede all the gun-control crap with a big fat law that makes it
    llegal to even glance at trampleing our rights. These are our rights as americans, not some license that the government granted us, but rights as free men that were presented to the bastards with the warning that if they didn't like it, we would line them against the wall and shoot them or worse, send them back to england.
     
  16. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Good point, Seacowboys. The thing is, I have been a part of the "resistance" if you will for quite some time now. Since the early 90's, I was one of the beginning supporters of the Constitution Party, back when it was not so religious and extreme (perverted by the CIA, I always say). I am the **** County, Florida coordinator for the We the People Congress, -website- and I have helped spread the message for years now.

    We are losing our case with the IRS, and things do not look too good. It is not because we have weak kung fu -it is because the court system and judges are bought and paid for. We are simply running out of avenues for peaceful reconcilliation.

    I pray and hope that this will not turn violent. If it does, then the martial law police state will be rolled out in full force, and I am sorry but we are simply not prepared for that just yet. We, as a nation are divided in TOO MANY ways.

    I see only despair.

    *edited for OPSEC*
     
  17. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    As far as any resistance by force we pretty well lost that ability well before the second amendment was even attacked. Our fore fathers due to comfort and confidence, financial issues, fear, or parcticality never realy exercised the 2nd in the spirit in which it was written by keeping the armament of the peolpe equal to or superior to that of the government controled millitary with artillary and so on. The founding fathers added this as stated due to haveing just thrown off an oppresive government and knowing the young government they were forming would one day have the potential to become just as bad or worse and so wanted to be certian the citizens were able to stay off the strength of their government if the government ever decided it was they rather than the people who held the power.
    Worse is the fact that in the past century we as a people have become fat and lazy and dependent on things the government dose or easily can controle. How many people in modern times could live with no gas, no utilities, no food in the stores? How many farmers could plant fields to even produce the food if fuel for their equiptment were choked off? Add to this that our government has tecnilogical advantages far beyond anything civiliand are allowed acess to, combat aircraft, artillary, armored tanks and personel carriers, and resupply capabilities beyond any open to civilians, not to mention aliances to many other governments and their militaries. I fear we long long ago gave up the true spirit of the second amendment in the times of our great grand fathers if not before and have simply moved further from it as time has gon by. While we still have small arms and a few even have full auto arms, how sucessful would they really be against tanks and gun ships? Our millitary no longer uses infantry as a primairy offencive tool but rather sends in mechanised means to break any real threat then sends in well equiped and well trained infantry to just mop up the scraps.
    I fear we no longer have strength as a viable last resort, if we cannot reach our goals through peaceful means we will be unable to reach them at all.
     
  18. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Not to negate what you have said MM, because I agree...

    Most of us know that urban warfare is what all modern military forces are training on heavily today. This is mainly because they know that most warfare that will take place will be in city/urban environments. When I trained in the Army, I was trained in MOUT tactics. I was told that we will one day have to combat an "enemy" or even put down an out of control crowd of civilians if necessary. The best way to defeat the "enemy" is to fight faster, better, and kill them before they kill you. To overcome a crowd, simply take out the leader or the most noisy and troublesome crew. Examples like this tell us that modern warfare is changing. We have police working with the military in joint ventures such as "Operation Urban Warrior", and we have our law enforcement being trained as military units -in direct violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.

    Yes, it will be a VERY difficult war if it ever occurs. But remember Vietnam. Remember Baghdad. Guerilla warfare is a very effective way to fight a larger, more equipped enemy. The larger, faster, better army of today does impose serious problems for a potential war against the civilian populace, but it is not all powerful. A guerilla unit can travel faster, unheard of, striking in small units at the enemy's supply lines and storage depots. They can become a larger army if kept underground and secret and only utilized when necessary. The guerilla army could potentially be better overall if they play it smart, acquire the enemy's weapons after every battle, use their own ammo and weapons against them. Grow stronger as the enemy grows weaker. The guerilla unit could sabotage a large force by dressing like the enemy, infiltrating, and wreaking havoc on command centers and areas of vital interest for the enemy.

    In my opinion, as long as the civilian population keeps their weapons, there will be no police state rolled out. But believe me, if we all started rioting and shooting government officials -the gestapo that would have made Hitler mess his pants would be rolled out in full effect. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of blue helmeted UN warriors from around the globe working in conjunction with our own units. We are talking Orwell's 1984 come alive.

    -Col. Mark Thiffault, Director, Joint Information Bureau, Urban Warrior
     
  19. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Not all of the military forces will turn on the American civilian in those days.
     
  20. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Who says they would need to...ship them out to fight else where and bring in UN forces. Other than that how many who didnt would make it out with equiptment that would do much.
     
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