Newbie Generator Question

Discussion in 'Off Grid Living' started by kylezahid, May 24, 2017.


  1. kylezahid

    kylezahid Neophyte Monkey

    I’ve been searching the forums for days, off and on, and have had no luck finding how to auto gen start my generator. I have an AIMS inverter/charger (PICOGLF60W48V120V, 6000 Watt Pure Sine Power Inverter Charger - 48 Volt to 120 Volt) and a Champion generator (Model #100204, 2800W/3100W Dual Fuel Inverter Generator ).

    The inverter/charger has a two-wire connector for auto gen start and the generator has an electric start, but I just can’t figure out where to connect the two wires to the electric start. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I attached the wiring diagram.

    Thanks in advance

    champion generator wiring diagram.
     
  2. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    What ever gave you the Idea, that this unit had AutoStart capabilities? After looking at the Print, and reading the Manual, It would seem that this Unit requires a series of steps, to engage the Start Circuit, not a simple Switch Closure, like Units designed with AutoStart Capabilities.... Also you void the Warrantee, if you start the Unit with Loads attached to the AC Output... Manual states this is a "NO, NO"... I suppose one could design, and build, an AutoStart Box for this Unit, however it would need a Electrical Solenoid driven Contractor, that would NOT connect the AC Loads until after the Generator had been running for a minute, or two... Not a simple Project, but could be done...
     
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  3. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Bruce pretty well nailed it.
    Your best bet with that genset would be to either leave it as is, or do a remote start...but you'll still have to let it warm up and stabilize before connecting your loads. Or get a genny that has auto-start capabilities.
    Some things are just the way they are...
     
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  4. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Problem is with out a transfer switch you can only power half the breaker box.
    Also you can not connect a 120v only generator to your house. It has to be a generator with a neutral ground bond.
    But to install it you have to sever the neutral ground bind at the generator when you wire it in.
    I put my neutral ground bond on a switch since I can tie them into the house or use them as stand alone.
    The problem is with these 120v only generators is nearly all of them don't make a 120v hot line and a 0v neutral. They make 2 legs of 60v so when you hook it up to your house, if not done correctly you energize all your grounds with 60v of AC. It's called a floating neutral and it literally potential to be very dangerous.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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  5. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Nope... @oil pan 4 You got it wrong.... If you have NO 240Vac Loads, that you need to run from the Genset, you can power Both Legs of a 120/240Vac Distribution Box by connecting the Neutral/Ground Line to the Neutral in the Distribution System, and connect the Hot Line, to both 120Vac Legs.... You just have to NOT turn on more Load, than the Genset can output.... Even if you do have 240Vac Loads they will be powered IN Phase, instead of 180 degrees Out of Phase, as you would with 120/240Vac Single Phase Generation. and since both Legs are in Phase, (IE always at the same Potential) NO CURRENT will flow thru the 240Vac Device.
    AND if you had looked at the Genset Specs, cited by the OP, It DOES have a 240Vac Sing;e Phase Output.... Again Manual Load Balancing will be required....
     
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  6. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    The generator can only feed the panel, you have to have some form of switch gear to isolate the panel from the line feed and switch it to the generator. Failing to do will either kill the generator as you try to replace the power plant, fry it when the power plant feeds the generator, or endanger the linemen trying to repair the line. This is not simple stuff and codes, rightfully so, need to be followed and signed off. Either do it manually, then you don't need auto start, or the person you hire to design and install the switch gear had better be able to handle all the job or you should find someone else. It is possible that you wish to have a remote start generator, that allows you to isolate the panel, start the generator from a distance, and transfer the load to the panel once it is warmed up and the rpm stabilized. You should do that anyway as the starting loads are much higher then the run loads and the generator output should be watched while the load is applied. It requires a whole different approach if the panel is only fed by the generator, as on a boat or a remote location, and that my friend is an art in itself.

    See generators fried every time we have a storm. Almost all have a 240 output and 2 120 outputs, and this is done by having the neutral, which also may be the ground connected to the center of the 2 120 coils. If you use a suicide cord to connect a 120 outlet to a 120 outlet on the the generator, you will only have half of the rated output available.

    I am confused as to how to get 120 out of that generator given the print shown. Looks like it is a 3 phase system and configured with no ground on the center of the 3 coils, and they only show 3 wires out, not 4 or 5 as they usually show on a 3 phase system. While that would give you 120 across any of the coils, it could get a little interesting and a lot of smoke if you don't get the returns right. No problem for 3 phase, but I don't think I would be able to tie all 3 phases into my standard 220 house wiring.

    Re reading the original post for the 3rd time, I think he may be trying to set up an off grid system and is trying to connect up an inverter. Is he trying to run the 48 volt inverter on 120 volts, or is he trying to replace the output of the inverter with the generator? Does he have a power company line or is it stand alone?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
    sec_monkey likes this.
  7. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    You folks have NOT READ the Manual..... The is an INVERTER Type Genset, that generates it's Power in three Phase, rectifies those three phases, and applies the resulting D.C. Power to the INPUT of the INVERTER Circuit, to make the 120/240 Single Phase Output Power.... Also you might NOTE, that the OP, never stated that he was using this in a GRID-Connected System.... You are assuming Facts NOT in Evidence....
     
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  8. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    I can't see the sync of phase on this AIMS unit , But I can see smoke !!! , REAL INVERTERS use a sync phase matching for grid tie & gen link !!
    This will NOT work .

    Sloth
     
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  9. kylezahid

    kylezahid Neophyte Monkey

    Not doing a grid tie system. I will be using the generator mainly to recharge my 48v battery bank only.
     
  10. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    I would not attempt for one minute to add a remote starting system to this inv/gen. First there is no automatic choke, second the start sequence must begin within 5 seconds of activating the start circuit or there could be damage to the starter.

    Not only would you have to build a unit that would sense the loss of the commercial source, you would have to engineer a timed start circuit that would interrupt the attempted start signal at 5 second intervals, resting for 10 seconds then attempting the start sequence again until the engine starts with the choke wide open.

    I recommend you manually start this inv/gen, operating the choke manually until the set is fully stabilized and warmed up before progressively connecting the load.

    If you intend to start this remotely you would essentially have to engineer a device that would do all the same things without sensing the commercial outage.

    If just recharging your batteries, go out and do it manually... It is the only way.
     
    sec_monkey likes this.
  11. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    My fault, the wiring diagram does me very little good, I am old school and when it goes into a black box, replaced as a unit, and comes back out transformed into something else I get lost. The old units I am used to did not shift the output 120 volts when they went to auto start, they instead turned on a motorized battery charger and the regulation in the charger took care of the batteries and protected the generator and the inverter maintained the ac. Honestly have not worked on one of the systems I think he is describing. If he were using a battery charger that started a generator to charge them at some predetermined level of discharge, there are examples going back into the 1890's at least.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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  12. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

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  13. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    That's why I said:
    Very few I have seen are done correctly.
    To me powering up a house panel with a 120v only generator is just poor practice.
    The 120v transfer and rewire will cost so much that it would be cheaper and easier to do a 240v generator and simple transfer tie in that could potentially power everything.
     
    sec_monkey likes this.
  14. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    This is one of those fancy inverter units. Ignore all that 3 phase stuff.
     
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  15. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    @oil pan 4 , it is a 120/240 volt generator...with no grid tie intended.
    OOOPS...no, just 120!!!

    Just hook the generator up to the V in - through a breaker, similar to what you'd use for a central a/c. Start the gen, let it stabilize, then turn the breaker on.
    Keep it simple. Fewer problems, and cheaper all around.

    Just my $0.02 :)
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
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  16. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Generating single phase power, stepping it down to 48v, rectifying it and filtering it is very inefficient and expensive.
    The way I would charge a 48v bank is with a modified automotive alternator with a Honda GX200 motor.
     
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  17. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    I don't see any way this is a 120/240v generator.
    We are still talking about the 2800/3100 dual fuel inverter correct?
     
    sec_monkey likes this.
  18. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    Corrected in post above...my error.
     
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  19. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Above from my post is ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Buy a real unit & live .
    Sell off the mistake !

    IT's not like I haven't furbared bad & it cost me huge !!
    12 years doing this from crap !!
     
    sec_monkey and Dunerunner like this.
  20. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    READ THE MANUAL.... DUH... There is a link on the OPs first post....
     
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