Next gun

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Sharpie44, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. Sharpie44

    Sharpie44 Monkey++

    I wanted to get some opinions on my next gun purchase. I don’t own anything semi auto and I would really like one just in case the [shtf]. I was thinking about getting an SVD because I already have five hundred rounds of 7.62X54r and its in my $1000 price range. Also I’m very good with long rage rifles but not so much with ARs and AKs just because I rarely get a chance to shoot them. I’m not stuck on an SVD but it seems like the best choice. I’ve also seen some extremely modified scoped AKs but I don’t know how much they would cost or how they perform. So what do you people think?

    List of my guns

    • Mosin nagant 91/30
    • .270 Remington model 700
    • 30-30 marlin lever action
    • 20G Remington pump
    • Bolt action 12G with variable choke
    • .223 Harrington and Richardson break action.
    • .357 magnum Dan Wesson
  2. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I spent twenty minutes typing a response but went to get a link and lost it...This is a very controversial thread lately but I think theauthor makes some valid points about shooting people at 200 yards. and how bad guys are not going to announce themselves but rather walk up to you with a dog on a leash or a baby carrier in one hand. Be forewarned some monkeys have said this guys gota alot of ego,So take it for what its worth

    This may cause a fight but IMHO I think he makes some valid points here ( others here disagree):A LOT has been written on survival weapons. Everyone that is into armed survival has his or her own idea of the ideal gun battery. Some more oriented to a hunting point of view, others only as self defense means and others consider a little of both, and look for general purpose weapons. Talking about guns, there is one special subject I want to rectify, and it’s the point on what’s the primary weapon for the survivalist, specially a urban survivalist that has to function in a society, yes, even after the SHTF.
    The primary defensive weapon for the survivalist is his HANDGUN. It’s the weapon that stays with him when he is doing his business around town of working on the field. The survivalist IS NOT a soldier, even though you are a soldier or you once were the meanest mother on the battlefield, your home town is not a battlefield and it won’t be, even if the SHTF. A LOT of water has to go under the bridge until the situation gets to a point where you can calmly walk down the street with a rifle on your shoulder. People, if you are interested in real world SHTF situation and you want to prepare for the real deal, then understand that this isn’t black or white. You wake up one day and listen on the radio that the economy collapsed and that the stock market closed indefinitely. What do you do? You still have to go to the office/work/whatever. Kiss the wife good bye and walk to the office with your AR across your back, or across your chest, Israeli style, ready to shoot? You won’t get far. Someone will shoot you or throw you in jail, or in a mental institution.

    What I’m trying to explain, is that it’s ok to prepare for China invading your country, Germans and UN or Martians. That is the extreme, least likely worst case scenario.
    There is an infinity spectrum of gray between the black and white. White being your average normal day and black being total TEOTWAWKI, lizard men invading the planet.
    Rifles do have a place in the survivalist’s arsenal, and a very important one. But you have to understand that 90% of the time, the handgun will be the weapon you have available when you need one. You can’t compare to a trooper in Iraq that has his weapon with him at all times. I ask you how many soldiers do you know that keep wearing camouflage and toting their M4s around town when they return home?

    What works for war does not work for the survivalist, especially the urban survivalist.
    Even if you live in a retreat far from town, you have to work, don’t you? Or do you have employees that take care of all your mundane tasks, leaving you all day to keep watch with your rifle ready? A soldier is part of a huge machine; HIS job is to carry that rifle, while others take care of other needs. A survivalist, one that is not part of a large survivalist group, has no one to cover for him. When a new guy looks for advice on what to get for defense, some will recommend a rifle or shotgun as a first defensive weapon.
    Let’s say race riots start in this guy’s city. He still has to go to work every day. What is he supposed to do? Shove his pump shotgun in his pocket? A handgun, even though less powerful, can be used for home defense AND go with you wherever you need to go. If the place floods, he can still hop into an evacuation boat without leaving his weapon behind. I’m sure no rescue team will pick you if you are carrying a long arm. They’ll ask you to leave it behind for sure. What if your government, realizing that TSHTF and that they lost control of the events, bans all firearms indefinitely? Don’t know about you, but if things are that bad, I’d like to be armed. You can hide a handgun under a jacket. You can’t hide a long arm under your clothes.

    I think it was Clint Smith who said that the handgun is only to be used to fight his way to his rifle. Man! That sounds “macho”. I’d love to see him walking into Walmart with his tactical M4, taking the subway, visiting the doctor or going to the bank. “Over here Mr. Smith, you can hang you M4 right next to my coat” I don’t think so. Guys, unless you have your own shooting school, you do not get to carry your rifle to work.

    OK, now that I got that out of my chest lets look at some options.

    Handguns: Revolver or Pistol? Pistol ALL THE WAY! Yes, I saw the video of the guy that accurately emptied his S&W in ½ a second. I also saw the shooting range and the crowd behind him, watching the event. Can he shoot and reload that way if he is in his car, driving with one hand and shooting with the other, while a bunch of scum bags in another car are shooting at him? Hey, maybe he can. I know I can’t. Can you?
    Generally speaking, the revolver is more difficult to master than the pistol. The double action is hard and it affects speed and accuracy. It can be done, but I found that pistols are easier, as did many shooters. Also, even though they seem to be more simple, revolvers are not as rugged as service pistols, the mechanism that cycles the cylinder and cocks the hammer is both complicated and fragile compared to auto pistols.
    Before anyone starts casting evil voodoo spells at me for insulting their prized S&W or Ruger: I own revolvers and like shooting them, I just don’t think they are the best option for self defense, and I see that everyone I talk to in my country who is worried about security as I am also chooses pistols. Quality pistols resist sand, mud and dirt in general better than revolvers, where a small pebble locked in the mechanism may render the revolver inoperable.

    I personally had a problem with a new stainless steel Taurus Tracker .357 magnum. After shooting it a couple of times I reloaded it and shot all 7 rounds as fast as I could and when I tried to empty it, I found that the empties were stuck because they expanded because of the heat. I had to wait until the gun cooled a little so I could empty the gun. Stuff like this can get you killed, even more in a 7 round handgun. I once saw a man walk into a gun store wanting to trade his 357 magnum revolver for a 9mm high capacity pistol. He said he was driving when thugs from another car started shooting at him. He was chased for a few blocks. He said that he pulled his revolver and started shooting at them, and ran out of ammo real fast. He wanted more capacity and fast reloading. I could not agree with him more. Some will consider this “Spray and pray”, thinking that all rounds should hit the target and if some don’t then it means that you need more time at the range. Those same people will tell you that they intend to use bolt action rifles as defensive rifles, making each shot count, without ever missing their target, one shot one kill. I don’t agree with this. One shot one kill is ok for snipers, but the survivalist should have other alternatives.

    I don’t see anything wrong with shooting four or five rounds at a chasing car. If those rounds make them think twice about their intentions, they are rounds well spent in my book, even if they don’t kill the attacker. Suppressive fire is possible if you have a high capacity pistol. I wouldn’t doubt on using such a tactic if it serves my purposes, or if it buys me time to get out of there. Also keep in mind that criminals are cowards and therefore attack in groups. The survivalist should be able to face more than just one attacker. Getting into a gunfight with two or three armed men while packing a 6 round revolver is rather hard to deal with. A high capacity pistol can load about 15 or 19 rounds, and that can certainly make a difference in a gunfight where you are outnumbered.

    A forensic doctor that used to live in my neighborhood got killed last year. He was ambushed when he exited a restaurant by 5 or 6 men. Even though they did kill him he managed to kill 4 of them and severely injure another. He shot regularly and carried a Glock .40. I’m sure he was lucky but I also think that his choice of weapon was also important in the outcome. If anyone is wondering, people in my country that are serious about self defense carry Glocks. Those that don’t have the money for a Glock carry Bersas, FN 9mm High Powers or 1911 surplus .45s. At first I wasn’t sure about the Bersa, but once I tried them I saw that they are very decent guns.

    The caliber choice calls for endless debate and it is not my intention here. Lets just say that 9mm , 40S&W and 45ACP are the obvious choices. 40S&W seem to be the most adequate, both in FMJ and HP, while 9mm lacks some stopping power and hollow points should be used if possible. Though the 9mm lacks power compared to the 40S&W, it is more popular world wide, a factor to consider seriously when choosing a handgun for SHTF. Besides, 9mm can also be used in a number of carbines and SMG, another important fact to be considered.

    SMGs and carbines chambered for 40S&W and .45 ACP are also available, but they at not nearly as popular as those chambered for 9mm. Whatever you choose keep 500 or better yet 1000 rounds of quality ammo for your handgun at all times. 100 rounds won’t last much if the crisis lasts long. Also consider that once the balloon goes up, governments tend to restrict guns and ammo.

    I previously stated that the urban survivalist will be using his handgun 90% of the time he needs to defend himself and family from attackers. I didn’t pull this figure out of thin air; it is quite accurate based on what happens here on daily basis, even a little optimistic. Cold harsh reality has shown us that most attacks occur when entering or exiting your home, when you are more vulnerable. Almost no one is stupid enough to try to enter a barred house with armed occupants. Believe me people; the gene pool will clean itself rather fast once the SHTF. So, is a rifle necessary? Of course it is! There is still that 10%, and that 10% can still ruin your day. And this percentage sky rockets if you intend to use that same rifle for putting meat on the table. If you have to settle with just one rifle, go for a semi auto. Ideally you should have a bolt action one and a semi auto rifle. A bolt action and a semiautomatic 308 would make a nice combination.
    Whatever yo
  3. Sharpie44

    Sharpie44 Monkey++

    Thanks Nice information but I don't agree with some of it and I'm basing my armament off of wilderness survival. I need my guns to also be useful for hunting otherwise i would be buying a lot of ammunition just in case i need to shoot someone. It's also less likely that my Dan Wesson will brake compared to an auto like a 1911 that has more moving parts. It also forces me to use less ammo and make every shot count a good thing if you're in short supply.
  4. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    better count those parts, Buddy, a 1911 has less of them than a wheel-gun. Got my next gun today; a 1856 Remington .44 revolver with a long barrel and a shoulder stock. Kinda hard to restrict bullets for that one.
  5. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Its your choice and opinion, (I Agree with Seacowboys. one tiny pebble inthe action of your revolver and its toast unless you can get the side plate off, old ruger security sixes had ready access to the trigger group.
    Alot of even city folks think they're gonna run to the hills and shoot deer for a living... don't know how many big mammals are going to stick around once the cities empty out.Just my opinion...
    blackpowder guns (You can order them through the mail!!!!)have always intriuged me; had .54 TC renegade hawkins ayears ago, accurate as "all get out with" 110grn pyrodex and a "minieball"conical.
  6. Sharpie44

    Sharpie44 Monkey++

    I could be wrong. I don't know a whole lot about hand guns just bolt action rifles but My revolver has about 25 parts total and a 1911 has 37. As for breakable moving parts I'm not relay sure. I was guessing when I said that and I just don't like semi auto hand guns. I've had plenty of them jam on me at the range but never a revolver. My roommates 9mm Beretta actually jammed on me 3 times. I just don't trust them.

    The black powder .44 is an interesting buy. I always wanted to try one out at the range but never had the chance. I have a .50 flint lock rifle but no pistol.

  7. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Most of those 37 parts don't move. Trigger, hammer, sear, disconnect, slide, barrel. rest of them just hold everything where it goes.
  8. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I like revolvers in that no springs are compressed while it sits fully loaded, but I had a s&W4" .22mag( forget the model shame on me!) that wouldn't eject the empties withouthe ejecter rod putting a hole inyour palm ( should've sent it back for service.).
    Once you start double tapping an autopistol, you'll stray from revolvers.I still like'em but the autos moving parts are big and easily serviceable.
  9. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    If you are looking to use those 500 rounds of x54, I'd get a $150ish Mosin Nagant. I would NOT spend $1000 on anything that took that round. Not that it's a bad round but you'd be throwing good money after bad.

    x39 is still relatively cheap and so are AKs, even if you haven't used them. You probabbly aren't too proficient with the SVD either so the AK/AR dismissal is null.

    I'd do everything in my power to convert to a NATO caliber pronto. And buy a cheap Mosin Nagant to justify that sardine can of ammo you are sitting on.
  10. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    "Sgt major "don't you want to arm yourself with an m-16?" Sir, by the time I need one there'll be plenty of them lying on the ground"(from the vietnam war movie "We were soldiers").. course I wouldn't want to be captured with with a serial numbered battlefield"pick up"
  11. toemag

    toemag Monkey++

    While I was working security back in the early 90's I was taught to shoot revolver double action by a good coach, my best score at 25m was 143 from a possible 150, all fired double action through a S&W #586. I never equalled that score with any pistol, be it sigs H&K's or my beloved glock 17.

    Having said that, after my accident in 2006, my fine motoric in my right arm is destroyed, the Doctors keep telling me that the pain is a ghost pain and my observations in loss of control and strength are just my imagination, although when I lift a cup of coffee my arm trembles so much that I always have spillage. These god's in white piss me off, they have done all of their tests X-ray and even a CT and found nothing that would explain it, so now I have to learn to live with it.

    With my Colt DS special I used to be able to hit balloons from the hip fast draw double action at 7m, now I'd be lucky to hit the backstop.

    Aw well not to bother, guess I'm lucky to be alive.

  12. homeshow

    homeshow Monkey++

    look get a glock 17. it is an appliance. like a refrigerator or a coffeee maker. every day you can shoot a glock and not wear it out. also with modern bullets and powders a 9MM is just devastating to an assailant. the 17 round magazine does not hurt either. assailants are like wild dogs and coyotes. pack animals and vicious killers. putting 3 rounds into the assailant in front of you means 3 rounds left in a wheel gun ( i do love wheel guns!!) . but i digress, you have 3 rounds left get to cover or just drop to a bettershooting position and there are 2 assailants left. not a wheel gun solution available. BUT there are 14 rounds left in your glock.

    i pray that none of you ever find yourselves in that situation. unfortunately the one assailant scenario is just a small percentage of the possabilities.

    also a glock is around $500.00 smackers brand new that leaves $450.00 smackers after taxes for ammunition. that is a lot of high quality 9MM hollow point ammo.

    i hope that helped,
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Ford vs. Chevy, this business of pistol vs. wheel gun. I've long ago decided a wheel is the way for me to roll until I develop a sense that my pistol(s) are reliable. (One of them is not, the other unproven.) More parts, less shots? OK by me, I've never had a revolver ftf or jam, and never heard of one failing if it was fed the right diet.

    To me, it comes down to what you are prepping for. I can see the utility of many, many rounds on call in a "downtown" environment. Not needed here unless under direct assault, which would pretty much guarantee that I'll never dig up the cache anyway.

  14. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Yep, how many years of wasted manhours have gone into the rev vs. auto debates..."Most" gunfights occur within what 20 ft and are over in 3 rounds or less???I know Massad has alot to say about this topic ( but he's a controvery magnet here now.Somebody called him a "boob"...) Whatever, To each his own, There is no "right" answer....
  15. Sharpie44

    Sharpie44 Monkey++

    I've got a very nice Mosin Nagant that i restored about a year go. That's why I got the spam can. [beer]
  16. Sharpie44

    Sharpie44 Monkey++

    I had no intention of turning this into a revolver vs auto debate. I will never mention revolvers and pistols in the same post again.

    So still stuck on an SVD or a modified Ak. An m14 runs about $2000 but for that price I could get an M1 sniper. I could also get an old SVT tokarev rifle it's chamberd in X54. I guess I'll just have to keep looking.
  17. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Given that you are thinking on using a supply of ammo already in hand, the SVD makes some limited sense. I'd say you probably don't need an auto loader in a "major" caliber (myself defined as 7.62 or larger, to start another deterioration/discussion) but an auto loader is a good thing for your battery. X54R is still available in quantity and as inexpensively as it gets these days. Read up on the SVD in Wiki, and see if your spam stock is suitable; I don't know if all flavors of X54R is "best practice" for that arm.

    All that said, AK variants are not a bad "major" caliber choice these days, especially price wise. (But I have an AR in hand, "major" or not, it'll have to do pending a lottery hit.)
  18. Byte

    Byte Monkey+++

    Just to pick a're not getting an SVD for $1000. A real Russian SVD will run anywhere upto $6k. You'll be getting a Romanian PSL for that. The reason I make the distinction is that several primary parts will not be compatible...magazines specifically. PSL mags have the X on the sides. Make sure you're using the correct language in any discussion or you'll find yourself not paying the proper level of attention to detail!

    Just my 1/10 of a cent on the subject.

    If I have to be limited to one rifle and a handgun I sure won't be choosing an auto-loading 'sniper rifle'. Now if I am able to rely on others, having a combined arms approach would definately be the way to go. Solo? I have to decide whether one of my AK's would be more useful than my M1a SOCOM II. Many things to consider here. Weight w/ ammo, weildability in close quaters, ability to mount optics, accuracy at med range (out to 400m max), wound profile at all ranges. Each person has to make these determinations on their own based upon their own experience while taking into account any advice, solicited or not, that comes their way. My choice is's the SOCOM hands down!


    PS For your situation, I'd stay with the Mosin, I've got an M44 that I love to pieces, and start to look for an AK in either caliber for less than $800. Then pick up as much ammo as you can afford. Train with it and learn to shoot it well.

    The SOCOM II

    AK-47 7.62x39

    AKS-74 5.45x39
  19. Sharpie44

    Sharpie44 Monkey++

    Sounds like a good idea but i can get an AK for about $300 at a gun show. Is there a particular type or model I should be looking for?
  20. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

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