North Dakota access pipeline protests- Anonymous

The NIMBY groups, the Gia's, the protect the earth groups all want to protect their life styles and let the rest of the world go to h***. Out law coal, dirty, atomic, radiation and waste products, water power, need to let the fish run free, and depend on clean energy. But then wind looks bad and kills birds, solar panel production is polluting, natural gas requires pipelines and fracking, etc. In the end their is no way to preserve our present screwed up way of life without some compromises and no wants to do that and the results may well be a great die off and the creation of a system in which we have no choices, either because of lack of resources or lack of representation. The pipe line is just a symbol in the fight over the use of resources and the outcome will be severe no matter who wins. The native Americans are not going to win, even if they do stop the pipe line, as they are just as dependent on the system as "we" are.

 

Not a Buddhist, but tend to worry about my rice bowl. Half full, half empty, could care less, totally empty however is a real problem. I feel like a mouse in front of a herd of elephants, probably going to get stomped on, don't really matter what the elephants name was. Globalist, communist, capitalist, bilderberg, jewish, papist, etc, all names and while they all may be a threat to some people, its the empty rice bowl I worry about and it rapidly approaching empty and I don't know how to refill it or who to blame. View pipeline fight as a symbol and a warning of the future, not as a battle over land rights, water quality, sacred lands, etc.

 

all treaties have been broken by the US government to steal land from people they thought were no better than animals but they the government was just an invading army --my people were not animals we were and still are connected to the earth and all earth is scared in our eyes. my father was Cherokee/Seminole and my mother was Cajun I believe in the old ways and try to enrich the earth not rape it---wow let me get off my soap box sorry ---don't trust the government saying anything look for the things they don't tell you

 

No, YOU have now lost all credibility with me and lost my respect. You just fell into the "NIMBY, pissy/moany, I'm right and your a racist, biggoted HONKEY" crowd. This site is possibly one of if not THE most open, accepting, even-minded bunch of folks I have EVER had the privilege of knowing...even the two that I have on ignore.

Was there wrong? Yes. Is the "white man" the only one to blame? F**K NO! You come across as no less entitled, when you talk about this topic, than the 3rd generation welfare recipient when you get on your high palomino and claim that your position is the only position.

Who owned the land before the Native Americans? Who did THEY take it from? I assure you they didn't spring from the ground a fully formed people/civilization.

I have native american blood as well and I hear it call from time to time, but this bullshit about about mother earth and gaia and all land is sacred being the ONLY valid view point is what gets you shelved into the bin. Don't like the law? CHANGE IT and quit pissing about it. Don't think you are being treated fairly? CHANGE IT AND QUIT PISSING ABOUT IT! All you've done is bitch in this thread as opposed to telling what you are going to DO about it.

And in preparation for the flame war, which will just piss me off more, you and a handful of others will be on ignore for the time being because I now no longer want to hear your drivel. You had and have some good points but your score resets to zero when you become just as intolerant and just as bigoted as those you rail against.

Normally I would say just my $0.02 but clearly I'm not alone in being tired of ANYONE with only one viewpoint...the correct view point...and all others are racist whitey honkey priviledged bigots!

*** Edited to clarify the first sentence***

 

^ DarkLight

He's expressing his frustration, can't you see that? I agree that the comment about race was a little touch and that such a mindset will only divide us when we require unity to progress, but he's right when looking back. Most white people were extremely bigoted in those times and would look down their nose on natives as if they were no better than savage animals. They were hunted, tormented, pillaged and we're subjected to a hell of a lot more unspeakable things I'd rather not mention. There was a near genocide of all native Americans when the white man came and some did it laughing. I for one am very empathetic to the suffering of these people. The messed up part is that most white people did it with a battle cry of "YOU NEED TO BE SAVED!!!".

I have come to blame religion mostly for the way that people thought back then. Not the bible or Christianity itself, but the way people chose to apply those ideas.

 

I think one important point that is being missed in this thread..... why do we need this pipeline?

In condemnation there are two steps.
1) the federal, state, county agency MUST prove need
2) they must compensate the land owners.

Most people get stuck on item 2. The critical dog fight is in item 1. Most people miss this critical date in court and the judge only hears the government's side.

If you make the agency spend money to prove need, they will usually quit but most people don't understand this point.


I don't see anyone protesting the perceived NEED or NECESSITY for this pipeline. Why do we need it now? That is where the dog fight is essential

 

Strange as I thought about this all night, even in my dreams, can't get it out of my head...

So, the sins of our fathers can never be laid to rest... The Native Americans still consider us to be 'the fork tongue white devils' while the Black Americans still think we are slave owners. My family had members killed by Native Americans, slaughtered actually, by the Modocs. Perhaps I should sue? But, then my family as killed lots of Native Americans, even worse, we're related to the wife of Gen. George Custer, old 'yellow hair' himself. Perhaps Native Americans should sue me? But, then I am thinking of suing the BLM group because we lost at least four family members fighting a war to free the slaves. But, that will have to wait because as an Anglo-Saxon I will sue the Norman descendants who took our land by conquest in 1066. But, my Irish ancestors cry for justice for they were the slaves of Europe and America for hundreds of years before any African slave ever came to either continent. How ridiculous that we continue to live in the past...how utterly ridiculous.

Fact: Pipelines are a necessary evil especially if we will ever be able to cut the Foreign Oil umbilical cord.
Fact: Native Americans loss the wars of annihilation. After surrender, perhaps out of respect and perhaps out of mercy they were given their lives, lands and special rights to go with them...rights and lands, that normal Americans citizens do not have.
Fact: It continues to be contested in a court of law if the US government honored all of the treaties fully and/or fairly.
FACT: LIFE IS NOT FAIR AND SELDOM WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE.

This thread has shown me that there will never be a true America where we are all Americans first. However, it was a nice dream... I was much happier as a child and young man when I truly believed in that dream, that lie. Again, utterly ridiculous!

 

@Bandit99 I am not going to take the time to dispute your other 'facts' but I will dispute the asumption that all oil pipelines, by default are needed so that we are not dependant on foreign oil. I will also dispute the 'legal assumption' for need and necessity'. For every pipeline.

Corporations and governments tend to run rough shod over individual land owners because they understand condemnation law. To condem land to put in a pipeline they MUST prove 'need and necessity'. I have yet to see any reports proving that there is a legal proof of Need and necessity for this particular pipeline.

The oil from fracking costs somewhere over $69 per barrel to produce. High grade cude is currently around $30 a barrel. And the results of fracking do not produce high grade crude. So I still can't see any need or necissity. we also have hundreds of barrels in capped oil wells in the SW. So I just don't see need and necessity for this pipeline

 

Damn, that's a scary thought. Maybe air and light will be taxed in the future as well.

 

There never has been this true America and never will be until everyone stops trying to cram their values and beliefs down everyone elses throats. There are only roughly 3,000,000 of us left that carry a tribal enrollment card scattered across North America on the crappiest lands, turned from independent people to dependents of the Government. You rarely hear anything from the L/D/N unless what little land we have left is threatened, or we are trying to recover lands taken illegally. Take the activist cling on types and the race baiters like Jackson and Stein and their followers out of the equation and it comes down to one simple thing. The pipeline is a threat to tribal lands and yes pipelines leak all the time and occasionally leak really bad. Sometimes they even explode You really don't need oil to live, you really do need clean water to live. But I guess as long as it is not your water source being threatened it is all good.

It already is in some places and they are working on making it a reality for everyone

When the sins of the father are repeated by the children...... No it can't be laid to rest.

 

My great grandmother was Dine (Navajo) - a people screwed over by Uncle Sam often. She married my great-grandfather who was not only an ex-soldier, but also a BIA agent for the reservation. If they could love each other and live together, accepting their respective people's "warts" and all, why can't we? Indeed, today we all have a common enemy...an overreaching federal government who loves to keep us divided by whatever means work...so we don't unite against them. So call me what you want...but it's time to get over the freaking past and concentrate on making a better future...for us all.

 

FINALLY some real arguments based on a fact instead of innuendo and emotions! So, yes, I agree that the cost of fracking is higher than the high grade crude coming out of the ground from the Middle East. But remember, at this time, OPEC is keeping the oil price down by not lowering their output driving out most, if not all, of the American oil companies (especially small ones) working those big fields like Bakkan. Look it up! And, they are successful, just ain't cost effective anymore. All the guys around here that worked over there are now home and the rigs are shut down. What do you think caused the price of oil to drop? (That's a loaded question Ganado because I know you know, just making a point). We did. It didn't just magically drop. We caused the price of oil to drop because we started producing so damn much ourselves with the new fields and tech like fracking.

"I will dispute the asumption that all oil pipelines, by default are needed"
No, no, no...I did not mean it that way. My bad. I do admit I used the plural and I stand corrected. I meant this one is needed. Why? Because since they really started to work the huge BAKKAN field (think that is the name) and since fracking kicked off - it has been the driving force to driving oil prices down...pretty much cause and effect that even a layman like me can see. But, maybe it is not needed so...

So, is it needed? You sighted "eminent domain condemnation of land" law (1888) to prove it is needed but unless I misunderstand something here, this is private property owned by the pipeline owners and has nothing to do with the government. In which case they don't have to prove anything except building standards, etc. Maybe I am wrong and it is government land? Am I? If so, THAT is a game changer but I would have thought any attorney worth their salt would have pulled this out of the hat first if it was government land.

I don't have a dog in this fight, honestly. But, why should this country continue to rely on the Middle East for oil since it has cost us so much blood and treasure in the past? We have oil but oil does us no good unless it can get to refineries and get to ports. I am not questioning the fact that the Oil Companies are slime balls and that they want to make money or that they will run over the 'little man'. Personally, I don't like the idea of fracking as it sounds risky to me, the layman, but that's not my profession. However, we either can produce our own oil and have the means to distribute it or we are tied at the hip to Saudi and the others and we will never get free of them. Besides, just even having the means to do so keeps the price of crude down which turns into cheaper gas which is good for the entire economy.

Look, I understand, they are worried about polluting their water supply. I get it. Okay, that is a valid reason to be concerned; however, as example, the Alaskan pipeline runs through some of the last raw nature of the planet and the Native Alaskans and the State of Alaska would be screaming bloody murder if there were serious problems. And, how long has that Alaskan pipeline been active? It was finish in 1977. And, how long is that pipeline? It is 800 miles long, 48 inches wide. Where the EPA in all of this?

For generations we have had to eat OPEC dung and even went to war to protect the Kuwait oil fields and now we have the first chance in generations to tell them to go stuff themselves. And, that is my main reason for getting involved in this dogfight. But, honestly, to be able to tell the Saudis to get stuffed? No way do I want to give that up.

EDIT: BTW My mother was supposedly 50% Cherokee. I never met her so I don't know but that's what I was told...

 

@Bandit99 I see your points and agree with many of them except, when eminent domain is in effect most land owners thing they can't fight 'need and necessity' it is easy to fight because the burden of proof is on the condemnation agency.

Thanks for taking the time to lay out your view points.

and I understand the resentment of native americans. I don't have an answer for any of it ..... the conqueror does write the history and write or wrong I don't think dredging up a past that we weren't in, isn't useful. We have bigger, current fights today. I'm not a fan of divisive arguments that pull us from the present.

You can only fight the bastards NOW.

 

Please believe me, I do not agree with 'eminent domain' in any way, shape, or form. Actually, it is quite the contrary which I hope you have notice through my numerous posts. The fact, that any of our citizens think they cannot stand safely in the light of our country without the shadow of government's interference is...well, sad and disgusting and speaks volumes, so I need not say more of my feelings or must I...?

Yes, I do understand the resentment of native Americans. Great warriors. Historic warriors. As such, I do not need to say, but I will: they were lucky, as they well know. There are only 3 million now, not my number, as @Thunder5Ranch stated as such. They were lucky that they are still in existence. They fought well. But, I reiterate: this was a war of annihilation. Am I wrong? They themselves proclaim it. They lost. We won. Yes, we, the white fork-tongue devil won. And, I do not mean that in any snide or less than honorific way more so than the Nazi's loss and we won. Should I be sorry? My grandmother who lived to be over a 100 would say...different. And, I don't feel sorry. Why?...Good question! Do you really want the answer after you have sent me to 'how many countries to kill for no good reason?' And, we send them home in boxes, or without limbs, or so horrified that they cannot buy a bag of groceries? And, yet. I am suppose to be concerned about Native Americans that were terrorists in their day, 100 years ago, and very damn good terrorists! LOL! Equivalent to the PLO! Very, very good ones! LOL! And, you asked me to kill them and I did, with horrific losses, but now...?

Okay, they are concern with some new infrastructure in their area. Okay. That's understandable. And, they drag up a 'Trail of Tears'? Okay. All weep and cry...like it means anything. It doesn't. Okay. And, of course, no one has heard of Sarajevo, Kosovo, Uganda, Rwanda, Cambodia, the Kurds, and a hundred others...lots of genocide there! Okay. And, I wouldn't care but four of those places I know you sent American troops America. Yes, it had loads of skinny kids dying on the street corners but - I got my MRE! And, you seriously want me to be concern because now, "OMG! THEY ARE PUTTING A PIPELINE NEXT TO US!" Yeah, okay. But, they/you don't even want to be an American, right?. Do you? Do they? Nah... I think that was made perfectly clear in the thread. Right? Right. Moving on...

Take a deep breath, Bandit...

So...what I believe and seen, in countless days, outside the country is, Americans do bond. They forget the mistakes of history, the past and live, breathe, and fight as one and not only on the battlefield but in life. But, this...this crap at home, well, its like everyone has their own calling, their own horn, their own bitch, their own agenda, It's a pestilence and they peel the backs off any that disagree... We are not a nation anymore, God help us, we are not.

"You can only fight the bastards NOW."
Ganado, fighting is the easy part, tactics, tactics are easy. No, I retract that but tactics are easier than strategy. Strategy is key. People on this forum have given excellent advice...excellent. But, it will not be adhered to... This is pure bullshit politics, divide and conquer...I'm done. Good luck.

 

So what is wrong with being a NIMBY? VERY FEW WANT A PIPELINE IN THEIR BACK YARD. For those citing the Trans Alaska pipeline as the gold standard for pipelines Oil Leak Is Latest Mishap for Alaska’s Troubled Pipelines - ProPublica

 

And where is this supposed pipeline to end?

 

If I were living where I had gas coming out of the group with my water I WOULD FIND A WAY TO MAKE IT WORK FOR ME rather than expose my stupidity and complain about it.
Now that might begin charging him for the gas they are loosing through his well.

I would be capturing the gas and,
1. selling what I'm not using.
2. use a portion for my regular gas needs.
3. make power generation
4. Boil water distilling it with gas .
5. KEEP MY BIG MOUTH SHUT