Ok...lets try this one. SHTF Rifle

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by knophear, Oct 23, 2008.


  1. knophear

    knophear Monkey++

    I want a rifle for SHTF that is more reliable and is a larger caliber than the M4/AR-15, I want more accuracy than an AK, and more capacity than a shotgun. Any suggestions?
     
  2. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Adventure Riding Monkey Founding Member

    SKS - best 'bang for the buck', and can be fairly accurate with a little work and good ammo.
    Ammo is still cheap compared to .223REM or bigger calibers (.308WIN, etc.).
     
  3. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    If there weren't so many flavors of SHTF, it would be easy to recommend any particular rifle (or other MZB discouraging device.) Wimpy or not, .223 or 12 ga is ample in urban situations, may well be not worth a pile of pig droppings in Wyoming. Since you emphasize wanting more snort than an AR 15 (or equal) you might look into an AR-10 in 308. Stoner derived weapons can be easily tuned for reliability equal to an SKS or AK. The bad reliability rep for the M-16 was well earned, but not true these days. "Bang for the buck" AKs and SKS are hard to beat.
     
  4. knophear

    knophear Monkey++

    What brand AR's? Bushmaster? LWRC? RRA?
     
  5. WestPointMAG

    WestPointMAG Monkey++


    The one that is in my hand when I need it.
     
  6. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    Let your wallet make that choice. Any of them can be made to do like the best of them, it's all about money. Until you have one in your hot little hands, you can't tell what it needs to make it suit your preferences. You have to start somewhere, and for sure, the first step will take you down the path to an addiction (or maybe better called a search for perfection.) This is NOT a health risk like drugs unless your other half takes exception --

    [beer]

    (Think Fulton, too. Good product and they stand behind it.)
     
  7. CBMS

    CBMS Looking for a safe place

    What do you guys think of the XCR by Robarms? Its got a piston system but uses an ar style rifle.
    It also comes in 6.5 Grendel. mmmmmm
     
  8. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++ Site Supporter

    Very pricey ammo. Adams Arms prices is no less than 25.00 for 20 rounds.
     
  9. CBMS

    CBMS Looking for a safe place

    Right, however they do hae the same approx. range of a .308. I would be reloading (whenever I get my damn gun liscence) so that would cut down on price, not much, but something that can chest shot a moose and some bear its a good thing.
     
  10. WestPointMAG

    WestPointMAG Monkey++

    Gun liscence?[shrug]
     
  11. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Adventure Riding Monkey Founding Member

    He's in Canada. Different rules up there.
    I'm partial to Bushmaster, but most are good. It pays to shop around.
     
  12. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Look at the M1A or the AR10.
     
  13. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer


    30-30 winchester or marlin,spray paint it black if it matters to you...
     
  14. jimy

    jimy Monkey++

    M1a or a chinese copy would suit your criteria. .308, 5, 10, 20 round mags and a battle rifle design to boot. I've got 2 chinese M1A's as well as the XCR and a few ar's. (colt and stag arms) My $399 .308 rifle is still the goto gun.
     
  15. overbore

    overbore Monkey++

    As a certified Old Fart, the M1A is the updated version of the the Garrand so it has no major vices and is still in use in Iraq.

    As to the Mouse Gun variants, there are only three that meet Police Department criteria for reliability so do your homework and find what model s beyond Colt and Rock R meet the function test requirements as an actual fight is no place to learn that your gas tube is plugged from ball powder.

    Next thing you need to know is how to and where to set your zero. Handloadersbench has a good post by me for that :
    http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum5/6528.html

    If you are going with the short 7.62 variants, or, for that matter, longer X 51 rifles, how do you spell spare parts? Get them now. Overbore
     
  16. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    <script type="text/javascript" src="http://edge.quantserve.com/quant.js"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://military.us.intellitxt.com/v3/door.jsp?ts=1225149486268&pagecl=15589&enc=&fv=90&ipid=8628&seid=0&sest="></script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/js/vm/begin_200810101734.js"></script> The Ultimate Battle Rifle


    [​IMG] September 24, 2008
    Tactical Life|by Cameron Hopkins <!-- Uncomment this when the Jive comments functionality is available -->

    <!-- quick fix for IE6&7 render bug where duplicate word being added. hasLayout-related-->
    Belgium may be best known for fine shotguns, rich chocolate and tasty waffles, but for you and me, this quaint little country is the home of the world's finest major-caliber battle rifle, the FN-FAL. Renowned throughout the world for its rugged reliability, the FAL was manufactured in 10 countries in its heyday and issued to over 70 armies, not to mention various irregulars and mercenaries.
    In fact it was the FAL's calling card as the weapon of mercs that gained it the most notoriety.
    Col. "Mad" Mike Hoare, an Irish-born World War II veteran who immigrated to South Africa and went on to become one of the Dark Continent's most celebrated mercenaries, unwittingly did more to promote the legend of the FAL as the merc's gun-of-choice when he led a daring hostage rescue mission into the Belgian Congo in 1964 and freed a group of Americans and Belgians. In the days following the raid, Mad Mike's men held off the rebels long enough to evacuate over 1,800 European and American civilians.
    If the FAL, the "Fusil Automatique Legere," was not famous before, it would be now.
    The FAL is a .308 Win. (7.62 x 51mm) gas-operated, short-stroke piston system available in semiautomatic and automatic versions. The FAL's standard payload is a 20-round detachable box magazine; 30-round magazines were also made for a squad automatic version of the FAL, but they're not desirable due to their length and "spring issues" with the elongated box.
    The FAL came in four major versions. The best known by far was the FAL 50.00 standard model. It came with a 24-inch barrel. The next most popular was the Paratrooper version, the FAL 50.63, the same basic weapon except with a folding stock and a shortened 18-inch barrel. A standard 24-inch barrel with the Para's folding stock was called the FAL 50.64. The rarest version of all was the FAL 50.41, a heavy-barreled model with a built-in bipod designed as a squad machinegun, sort of like the BAR.
    Not only did the FAL vary in cosmetics, but also the weapon remains a testimony to the conflict between the English and metric systems of measurements. There are two categories of FALs, "metric" and "inch" pattern guns, inch-pattern guns being made in former British colonies like Australia and Canada while metric-pattern guns were made in places like Brazil. And no, the parts don't interchange. Worse yet, the magazines don't interchange!
    Most metric-pattern FALs came in full-auto with fixed carrying handles, while inch-pattern FALs were predominantly semi-auto with folding carrying handles. Once again, exceptions are the rule, so you can't simply glance at a FAL and decide from, say, the selector or the carrying handle whether it's inch or metric.
    While we all love the M-14, the U.S. came within a cat's whisker of adopting the FAL. In the early 1950s, there was world-wide clamor to upgrade all those "obsolete" battle rifles from World War II with more modern designs. Belgium's Fabrique Nationale (FN) had the best candidate in the FAL, but the company had thrown its lot in with England to develop the weapon in what the Brits thought was the caliber of the future, an intermediate bore .280 (7 x 43mm).
    When the U.S. Army field-tested the FAL in the early '50s, the die was already cast for the caliber choice, and that caliber would be the classic American bore size, from the Krag to the Springfield: .30 caliber. The new T65 round was the only thing the ordnance boys would consider-what we now call the .308 Win. or 7.62 NATO.
    Sensing the political wind, the Belgians redesigned the FAL to accommodate the 7.62 NATO with the first guns being ready in 1953. Ironically, Belgium wasn't the first country to adopt the .308 FAL; Canada was, in 1955. Britain adopted the FAL as the L1A1 SLR in 1957. From there, the FAL gained steam quickly with Israel, Brazil, South Africa, West Germany, India and other countries adopting the FN design.
    Meanwhile, the U.S. settled on the M-14, a not unforgivable alternative. But with its conventional wooden stock and short-stroke, gas-rod system, the M-14 was really just a face-lifted Garand with a detachable box magazine. At the end of the day, the derivative M-14 was chosen over the innovative FAL, primarily for that oft-encountered reason of "not invented here."
    First and foremost, the Belgian weapon features an adjustable gas system via a heavily knurled knob just behind the front sight. If the action is dirty or the soldier is fighting in a dusty, sandy, muddy environment, the gas regulator can be dialed up to give the bolt more oomph on its rearward travel.
    Additionally, the ergonomics of the FAL's controls are much better than the M-14's hard-to-reach and problem-prone control locations. I mean, whoever thought of putting the safety inside the trigger guard? John Garand, that's who!
    The sights of the M-14 are much better than those of the FAL, but the variable configurations of the FAL, from its handy little Para to its heavy bipod light machinegun, more than offset that consideration. It wasn't until after the turn of the century when Springfield Armory modernized the M-14 (M1A) with its SOCOM collapsible stock that the M-14 really caught up to the 50-year-old FAL.
    The bottom line is that if the U.S. had adopted the FAL in 1957 instead of the M-14, then we almost certainly never would have transitioned to the M-16, at least not as quickly as we did.
    Tipping the scales at nearly 10 pounds, the FAL is an easy-shooting .308. Even the Para version at slightly over 8 pounds is soft on the shoulder. Recoil is not a problem.
    The Belgian battle rifle's fire controls are, as we just noted, easily accessed and ergonomically positioned-for a right-hander. Like the M-16's controls, they're "right biased" with a down-for-fire thumb lever on the left side of the receiver.
    There is a prominent bolt knob, also on the left side of the receiver, although the Para's knob is a spring-loaded, fold-down version. An easily grasped bolt knob is a really good idea on a military weapon because you need to be able to manually cycle the action in the event of a malfunction.
    On the other hand, the M-16's magazine release is unquestionably better. The FAL's mag-release button is directly in front of the trigger guard, somewhat obscured by the mag well itself. It's not nearly as easy to reach as that of the M-16. The bolt release is even harder to access, tucked up inside the mag well. The M-16's bolt release is comparatively a snap to operate.
    But wait. I seem to have subconsciously fallen into a comparison of the FAL's controls with those of the M-16. It's a hard trap to avoid because the FAL seems to relish being pitted against all comers, and certainly the M-16 is the standard by which all others are judged as of now.
    Getting back to shooting the FAL, the Belgian rifle is as accurate as its sights can hold (no gun can out-shoot its sights, except with dumb luck) and is easy to operate. Its reliability is exceeded only by that of the "Glock" of assault rifles, the AK47. All told, the FAL is a thoroughly reliable, easy-to-shoot, hard-hitting battle rifle.
    Soldiers will quickly tell you that a lot more time is spent carrying a rifle than shooting it, and this is one area where the FAL reigns supreme. The carrying handle may look just a bit odd, sort of like a bent coat hanger, but it is positioned exactly over the center of gravity and allows the rifle to be carried comfortably all day, then folded out of the way when not needed. Also, the forward sling-attachment point swivels, allowing for a wider range of sling options.
    The FAL is comparatively clean in operation owing to the self-contained gas piston system of operation. The M-16 with its direct gas-assisted action spews hot gas and fouling directly into the bolt raceway and carrier. Even animals know not to foul their nests!
    The FAL was once the most widely issued battle rifle to the armies of the West and their mercenaries, standing up against AK-armed, Soviet-backed rebels and guerillas the world over during the Cold War. In its prime stomping grounds of Africa, the Belgian FAL became the calling card of hard-core, hard-charging, hard-bitten fighting men. And it still is.
     
  17. CBMS

    CBMS Looking for a safe place

    You wanna know what REALLY sucks? I want one, however its ILLEGAL for me to own one in Canada. Stupid Gun control law....
     
  18. overbore

    overbore Monkey++

    AR-15's:

    I left one out of my comments so here is the full list of approved AR's for police use:

    Rock River
    Colt
    Aramalite and
    Bushmaster

    Overbore
     
  19. knophear

    knophear Monkey++

    Soooo...any body have a spare AK, AR, or FAL they dont want? Or needs a good home because ur wife said u cant keep it? For free? :)
    I promise to feed it 20 square meals a day, keep it well groomed, and exercise it all the time, and it will have a warm bed @ nite...
     
  20. SuperTico

    SuperTico Yawn !

    YEPP Ditch the X box and cough up the Xtra for a National Match.
    Good chit !
     
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