On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tikka, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

    The article is longer and IMO, well worth reading the rest.
  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    I am pretty sure there have been other definitions given and posted over the last decade, but this was a good one.
  3. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    Lots of definitions; however, I like this one for its simplicity. As the old saying goes, it's a keeper. Perhaps because it was written by sheep dogs or old warriors who seem to have a better grip on wolves, sheep and sheep dogs than most.
  4. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    From an earlier post. a Poem.
    ShermanDog Eat Dog
    On the subject of sheepdogs....

    The Sheepdogs
    by: Russ Vaughn
    2d Bn, 327th Parachute Infantry Regiment
    101st Airborne Division
    Vietnam 65-66

    Most humans truly are like sheep
    Wanting nothing more than peace to keep
    To graze, grow fat and raise their young,
    Sweet taste of clover on the tongue.
    Their lives serene upon Life’s farm,
    They sense no threat nor fear no harm.
    On verdant meadows, they forage free
    With naught to fear, with naught to flee.
    They pay their sheepdogs little heed
    For there is no threat; there is no need.
    To the flock, sheepdog’s are mysteries,
    Roaming watchful round the peripheries.
    These fang-toothed creatures bark, they roar
    With the fetid reek of the carnivore,
    Too like the wolf of legends told,
    To be amongst our docile fold.
    Who needs sheepdogs? What good are they?
    They have no use, not in this day.
    Lock them away, out of our sight
    We have no need of their fierce might.
    But sudden in their midst a beast
    Has come to kill, has come to feast
    The wolves attack; they give no warning
    Upon that calm September morning
    They slash and kill with frenzied glee
    Their passive helpless enemy
    Who had no clue the wolves were there
    Far roaming from their Eastern lair.
    Then from the carnage, from the rout,
    Comes the cry, “Turn the sheepdogs out!”
    Thus is our nature but too our plight
    To keep our dogs on leashes tight
    And live a life of illusive bliss
    Hearing not the beast, his growl, his hiss.
    Until he has us by the throat,
    We pay no heed; we take no note.
    Not until he strikes us at our core
    Will we unleash the Dogs of War
    Only having felt the wolf pack’s wrath
    Do we loose the sheepdogs on its path.
    And the wolves will learn what we’ve shown before;
    We love our sheep, we Dogs of War.

    Sherman, Mar 3, 2010 Report
  5. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    Again the same analogy. The problem is too many sheep see themselves as sheep dogs. From the link:

    "Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself.
    The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for?"
    - William J. Bennett
    In a lecture to the United States Naval Academy
    November 24, 1997

    Is it worth dying over? To a sheep dog, the answer is yes. To others, the answer is found when they meet the two way range. If one hasn't met it, then one doesn't know.

    “De Oppresso Liber” is thought to translate to “To Liberate the Oppressed”. In actuality, the word liber is an adjective ‘free’ that could be translated ‘a free man’, and ‘de oppresso’ would be more an overwhelmed man. The phrase would therefore be more accurately translated, “from a caught man, a free man’. This what a sheep dog does.

    The problem is too often a sheep considers itself a sheep dog simply because it owns a firearm.
    Motomom34 and Dunerunner like this.
  6. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    But what happens when the sheepdog is beaten and trodden on by the sheep over the years. Will he remain a sheepdog, or become a wolf, or even pull at his chains when the pack from the east rushes into the meadow?
  7. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Uh-Oh...so what are you if you're neither, wolf, sheep or dog? For I have way too much capacity for violence due to all the years abroad and very desensitized for the same reason - yet - don't really care for the idiots who cannot see reality, the sheep, so I don't socialize, don't give a spit if the wolves eat them. Never really thought about this much...not sure I want to do so. But, it is worth a ponder... Honestly, I doubt many here (if any) are sheep but how many of you can truly say you are a wolf or dog? I am neither. Me? I just want to be left alone...
  8. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I, personally, find the analogy a little too clear cut, but expanding upon the nuances might be too much of a headache to clear things up...conflicted enough to have nothing to add, but with so much I wanna say that I can't keep my mouth shut...what to do, what to do.

    On a kind of a unfortunately unrelated side note, "why is the rum gone?" Haha.
  9. Gray Wolf

    Gray Wolf Monkey+++

    I think I have decided to be a porcupine. People are responsible for their own defense, and maybe my attitude is slipping a bit, but I'm not too sure how willing I am to put it all on the line for someone not of my clan/tribe/flock. Even the best case of self-defense is going to have substantial attorney fees that I can ill afford right now. So, mess with the porcupine and get a face full of quills!.
  10. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

  11. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I am heartened that @RickR , @AxesAreBetter, and @Gray Wolf can see the limitations of the Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs analogy. And I empathise with Axes about wanting to say more about it, but being conflicted about the brain snapping effort in articulating what needs to said.

    Some of you may be groaning, in anticipation of yet another chello master thesis, rambling on and on about something that may seems intuitively simple and self evident. I guess I could go counter to form, and just simply assert that the analogy is simply utter and complete Bull$h!t, which though tempting, and as concise as it would be, it wouldn't be quite correct either; I'm afraid, (and many of you should also be) that I will give you the more thoroughly considered version when I have completed it.

    As to me....I kind of defy pigeonholing or conventional description. I am what I need to be when I require it of myself. I have assumed the stance of being a guard dog, pet, companion dog, pack leader, attack dog, and a search and rescue dog, among other roles. I am also a trained war dog, who is concerned about what I might be capable of doing, if I unleashed the aggression that I have been trained to use, and to control. In all of those roles, self discipline is at the core of being effective at what I do.
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
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  12. Altoidfishfins

    Altoidfishfins Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Self discipline - sorely lacking with so many in modern society.
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  13. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    Bravo Chelloveck, with this quote you came quite close to articulating what I have tried to say a few times. In one of the many long tomes on this subject I have read statistics which indicate with regard to violence, even though we live in violent times no doubt, individuals who perpetuate this violence are a very miniscule part of society. It would seem the vast majority of society ARE capable of going their entire lives without ever raising a hand in a violent manner to another human being. Why is this? Are they apathetic to the plight of those who are preyed upon by the violent? Are they somehow ignorant to the violence around them? Do they fully trust in someone else to step up and protect them from harm if suddenly evil rises up and is in their face? From childhood I was taught to protect and defend me and mine. I was also taught to share and compromise and play nice at times for various reasons. I was also taught to read and learn and think for myself and to stand up for what I believe in. In applying all of the above at times physical violence came into play. Not vicious and unrestrained beyond the point that most gentle peoples could accept. However, as Chelloveck said above, many of us here are old trained wardogs. We are no longer on the leashes of our previous trainers and handlers. For us to unleash ourselves in society in full fury is something we question in our own minds lest we cross into the darkside of wolves. Polite society has mistaken Sheepdogs for wolves in the past and put them down or caged them (even worse in many cases) for their misunderstood transgressions.
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  14. marlas1too

    marlas1too Monkey+++

    3%ers are the sheepdogs and will always be---I for one too
  15. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    Kinda cross between a sheepdog and a big old snapping turtle... slow to anger but if I do bite I won't let go 'til it thunders....

    (Wish I was spry enough to be a Sheep Dog once again....)
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  16. Dont

    Dont Just another old gray Jarhead Monkey Site Supporter+++

    Sheepdogs are supposed to concern themselves with their home flock.. Don't do to be looking at the flock in the field across the valley and not pay attention to the wolves slipping in on your flock.. It would be more difficult for an old dog, that is accustomed to a much larger flock, to not worry for the distant flock.. However, he no longer has the stamina to run all over the valley chasing off wolves..

    Look to your own small flock and coordinate with the other sheepdogs in the valley to fight off the wolves.. Even an old dog can have his day!!
  17. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    Can the old dawg do a little long distance target work once the wolves have shown their true colors? :)
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  18. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I'm a wolf with morals.
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  19. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    @chelloveck I think you nailed it in one, don't change a thing. "a guard dog, pet, companion dog, pack leader, attack dog, and a search and rescue dog, among other roles. I am also a trained war dog, who is concerned about what I might be capable of doing..." I think this defines most of those here to include myself...

    @AxesAreBetter "I'm a wolf with morals." Interesting...need to think about this one. So, sort of like a domesticated wolf...wolf will protect his pack (family), has been trained not to attack the sheep - yet - instinctively would do so if allowed... I need to think about this one more... It does make some sense.
  20. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    That is close to it. I'd say that I am somewhere between indifferent and hostile to most sheep, and sheepdogs, who are willing to defend sheep and smokescreen them from the true nature of the world feel little kinship for me. The wolves see the wolf in me, and walk wary.
    I have no enemies, and few friends. I learned through persecution what sheep and sheepdogs are capable of, but most wolves are shortsighted morons with mental issues, at least the way sheep define wolves. That is the real issue, when you let the prey define the predator.
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