Opinions on restrictive covenants...

Discussion in 'Survival Communications' started by Tikka, Apr 14, 2012.

  1. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    BTP's thread "FCC and ARRL want your input on HOA Antenna Restrictions" started me thinking...

    Other than unsafe about the only restriction I ever agreed with was if the tower falls it must land on your property..

    (or plan on being sued lol)

    As there pretty of bad restrictions, are there any good ones?
  3. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++


    I have yet to see ANY HOA do more than attempt to grab power.[kneelsuckers]
  4. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    To a Ham buying where there are restrictive covenants is sync with buying a house with foil faced insulation. However, I do not want someone's tower and antenna landing on my property.
  5. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    The "Old Adage" is that you shouldn't build more antennas, than can safely land on your OWN Property, when the Big Wind blows them down".... and "If the BIg Wind doesn't knock out your Antennas, they aren't Big Enough"..... ..... YMMV.....
    Tully Mars likes this.
  6. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    But no where was it said they land on the property of others.. LOL

    We just bought a home where there is a HOA; they welcomed a Ham. Even a letter in case we have problems with the county or town.

    Quite a few of them are involved with emergency services so to them a Ham is a good thing to have in the neighborhood.

    As I have over couple of hundred on the usual 10,15,20 and 40 meter bands; my interests are more towards the low Bands.So big wire thingies ;)
  7. Idahoser

    Idahoser Monkey+++ Founding Member

    one big tyrant is worse than a bunch of little ones. I don't want the FCC having that kind of authority.
  8. dataman19

    dataman19 Monkey+

    Interesting Thread...
    If you live where the HOA is HAM friendly and sympathetic (Count your blessings) - great for you.
    If you live in an area where the HOA is a power hungry micro managing organization run by moranic idiots - then this is where the Federal Emergency Communications act can help you.
    This is all the FCC is looking into - they have a mandate to "regulate" radio. And the Antenna restrictions imposed by the FCC are under "Federal Jurisdiction" and exclusive of local and municipal restrictions (always has been).
    The problem is that some people will buy a house next to an Airports and or Air Force Base and then demand that the Airport/Base close - at at least stop flying planes. Stupid is what stupid is...
    In the Hamn Debate, people complain that Radio Towers are unsightly and a public nuisance... That Ham antennas are also a safety hazard that can fall at any moment, possibly kill some one.
    Enter the "Fall on your own property idea. If the antenna and tower structure is sighted and erected so it will only fall on "your property" then no one has any legal standing. If the antenna structure is configured so that its skyline outline is minimal - then no one has any beef.... Yea, I know of one lawyer in Miami Florida (back in 1978) who took pictures from his roof top of his three story house, he put a 15 foot step ladder on the roof (stupid idea - could have resulted in an accident - but it didn't) and stood on the top rung, Took pictures in every direction and then proceeded to serve papers on everyone who had an antenna that looked like a radio antenna. I was one of those individuals (I wrote him a note back and thanked him for the skyline pictures). When we wound up in court I produced my own photos, and asked him to explain why he can see all those antennas, yet I cannot, My house is a 3-story house too. The judge was curious too, she asked him to explain. It was then that he explained that he used a 15-foot step ladder, and admitted that without using the step ladder, you couldn't tell for certain which antennas were above the house roof line. I objected to his use of the ladder, the judge agreed with me. The HOA contended that my radios were a public nuisance and that "all radio antennas" simply had to go.
    The judge ruled that neither the lawyer (a resident) nor the HOA had federal jurisdiction. Neither had the authority to circumvent FAA or FCC.
    So I won. But short lived, two days later I got an HOA notice that my grass had been measured in three separate places and it was an average of 1/16" longer than HOA landscape rules. When I called the HOA and told thenm they were stupid - they only commented "Take down the Radio Antenna and we won't bother you again". That week end I put in astro turf. Got another letter saying I could/t have astro turf. Back to court, in court they produced a notice that was dated 10-days after I put in the astro turf - saying artificial grass is not allowed (something about a safety hazard, blah, blah,,,) Won that case because HOAs cannot retroactively apply rules that ate just plain made up... Also got $3,200 court awarded fees for legal, etc.
    Then the HOA sent everyone but me a letter explaining that everyone's monthly fees were temporarily going up to pay my court fees (after all a when a resident sues the HOA - they are suing all of us. The letter gave my address, my phone number, my work number and my car license plate number).
    Back to court - This time the judge was pissed and awarded me $10K with the stipulation that the HOA president, Secretary and three other HOA officers pay for it out of their personal funds. I also got a cease and desist order telling the HOA they could not speak, correspond, regulate, or even mention my name. The judge made the HOA president issue a formal and public apology, and required that they "personally" visit each and every resident in the neighborhood and obtain written proof that they had received the letter explaining that they were guilty of fraud and slander. The court also stipulated that they had 10-days to refund any and all fees that they had collected from the other homeowners, and to obtain a receipt from the homeowners acknowledging that they had done so..
    Three of my neighbors demanded all the HOA fees, not just the "additional fees", one was the lawyer that started it all. He was the first one to point out that the courts ordered "all fees", it mushroomed out of control from there.
    Never heard from the HOA again... I guess the secret was the court awarded fees.
    Three months later the HOA was dissolved, something about money,, bala blah....
    My point is that some HOAs are pleasant, but most are not.
    Here in Arizona Contracts trump Law. Which means is you are required (actually the statute says requested and agree to) in a written contract to agree to something that is not allowed by law, then the contract is enforceable in lie of legal precedent. So if you sign an agreement, and the agreement has stipulations that are not allowed or enforceable under the law - then you are stuck. This is how the realtors get around disclosure, by putting into the realty contract that you waive disclosure and waive any warranty issues. So when it comes up later - you are stuck. The legal reasons are that "you voluntarily signed, so you agreed to it".

    In our property closure there was such a notice, I took it out and tore it up. The realtor said it was part of the closing paperwork and that I couldn't do that. I looked at the sellers lawyer and said - "alright, then I won't close. Give me my deposits back and we will call it a day". Then I left.
    Two hours later I got called back, and they said they agreed to eliminate the notice. I said great, and I reduce my offer by $10,000. They balked. I said don't wait too long, If I walk out I'm taking another $10K - just because I think you are playing games with me. This is the closure, nothing is settled until we finalize the deal, you tried to modify it behind my back and I caught you. So we either have a deal or we don't.
    At that point I got up and started towards the door - they didn't let me leave, we closed at $20K below the original price. But I still paid over $180K (and that was in 2003). I also refused to sign until we all walked through the house (something realtors in Phoenix hardly ever do). I found over thirty items that needed to be fixed and noted them in the closure inspection walk-thru. Made the seller fix them too....
    I also removed the HOA compulsory clause from the sale. I replaced it with an agreement to enter into private negotiations with the HOA concerning pending HOA membership. This gave me the legal right to modify and remove items from the HOA covenants. My argument was "How can I be compelled to an agreement that I am not a party to". The seller, once again, agreed and we removed the HOA covenants. I also filed the papers at the court house to make sure it was "removed" from the land deed. The registrar was flabbergasted, but read the legal citation and filed the papers, laughing all the time. It isn't often that that happens. But it did.
    Seven months later I sold the house after doing a remodel and pocketed money. Such is the land of real estate.
    HOAs are no different. They think they can do things that they cannot. But some HOAs can do things that aren't right. It all depends upon what you did or did not sign.
    If the people want to sell their property, they will do almost anything to do so. If the seller is selling because the big bad HOA came to town and has been shoving a lot of crap down their throats because "We are the big bad HOA" - all the better reason to take the realtor induced crap out of the deed.
    Now we own an apartment complex, and three commercial properties. If I want to put up a 500 foot tower, I am reasonably sure I could. But why would I want to? a 40 or 50' tower works for almost everything (there are no buildings taller that 40 feet for a mile each direction). But I could.
    Oh yea, Our current Neighborhood has an HOA, but not a professionally managed one, and it is over 20 years old. Which means membership is no longer compulsory. But I am a member, and I vote. Heck, I vote in each and every election (Federal, State, County, City, whatever), what makes you think I'm going to join an HOA and not know whats going on. Our neighborhood association is more of a "take care of our neighborhood" kinda organization. I mentioned my tower, everyone frowned - then I said it would be 40 or 50 feet (wouldn't land on any ones property but mine if it fell) and if I put a crank up tower I will keep it parked at below 40 feet when not in use.
    I stated that I was most likely going to put up a 50 foot tower, but not some nightmare gazillion arial thing. I also have a DS3 spread spectrum Microwave that will be mounted at the top. It only has a 14" dia grid dish, and isn't too crazy (I had the dish with me at the meeting). This is my T3 network connection back to my server farm where I have the web farm. It also gives me really fast internet.
    All in all - I got my antenna. And the neighbors all speak to me. Win Win...
    Phoenix, AZ


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