pentagon footage bogus?

Discussion in 'Tin Foil Hat Lounge' started by Tango3, Nov 19, 2008.


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  1. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Good finds. I'll buy the 550 degrees for burning JP8 in an unconfined area, but in the engines, it will be closer to 2500 (IIRC, it has been a while since I saw the data) and newer ones with higher strength alloys will go higher still. Some steels may start to yield and soften at your 1100 degrees F, much above that and you are getting into heat treating ranges where stress mustn't be applied without metal distortion. Given that structural steels are fairly unsophisticated alloys, there are no surprises that it happened. Fluid, flowing steel happens in the high 2000s, very dependent on alloy. (One of my tables says 1400deg C for Bessemer process common carbon steel. That's about 2550 F from Temperature conversion online..)

    Why, then, do jet engines survive at operating temps, you ask? Because they have cooling passages drilled throughout which carry forced air to keep the temps of the metal alloys (I can't stress this enough, these steels are NOT structural materials) below the temps at which they weaken.

    Confined, as the Twin Tower fires were, it comes as no surprise to me that the structural steels in the area of the fires were weakened enough to yield and start the pancaking that was seen.
     
    ghrit, Dec 27, 2010
    #41
  2. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    I can tell you from PERSONAL Professional experience, that prepping, placing, timing, and then hiding, the amount of Energetic Materials, required to accomplish the explosive demolition of those two buildings, that were occupied 24/7, with NO ONE noticing, is so implausible as to be beyond reality. There would have to have been MILES of DetCord strung up and down the halls on each of the 10 or 15 floors, just to get the timing right. Just the engineering, to get all that setup, would have taken MONTHS, and the Prepping of the Steel Vertical Structural members for the installation of the Beam Cutting charges, would have required weeks, in not Months to accomplish, using cutting torches, and insulation strippers. None of this would be easily covered up. That idiot Physics Professor, who got fired from BYU, for his BS theories, isn't qualified to make ANY statements concerning the chemistry, that he supposedly found, on one piece of debris, that he supposedly stole from the site.

    This whole Demolition theory, is nothing more than TOTAL BS, formed in the minds of folks who have no experience with Energetic Materials.
     
    BTPost, Dec 27, 2010
    #42
  3. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Stella Artois, anyone? I find all the necessary answers when I have few beers, not necessarily the right answers, but the answers I need for that moment.
     
    Clyde, Dec 27, 2010
    #43
  4. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Interesting. I guess this proves that the internet is full of armchair experts, after all.

    Building 7 is the KEY. It was not hit by a plane. In fact, only very minor debris ever did fall on it. It was the FEMA, FBI, and CITY operations center -the headquarters and alleged staging ground for the entire incident. Silverstein, after he negotiated a massive insurance deal only days earlier, now goes on PBS and is recorded as saying "You know, we had such a huge loss of life, I figure the best thing to do was to just pull it," (referring to building 7). Do we agree so far? No theories. Just the facts, right? Why then, did this (what, 40 story?) hardened, steel reinforced building fall in under 5 seconds -complete in a single heap of jagged, small pieces? Oh, all of the steel, you know -the evidence...buried, sealed in concrete, shipped to China, gone. If building 7 video were actually viewed by people without lithium soaked brains, they will clearly see it crimping at the center, followed by plumes of smoke from the windows, and again followed by a very quick collapse -all common indicators of classic controlled demolition. The order to have a building demolished in this fashion, is "pull it".

    No theories. Just facts. Are we wrong?

    If we can prove building 7 was an inside job, then all the rest were as well. Simple, logical deduction.

    We can also deduce who stood to benefit from such a disaster. Obviously, Silverstein made a ton of money. The players on the stock market made a killing, the ones who may have had a little insight and just happen to be a part of certain cartels who are still in power today...those types of people. Maybe it was all luck, who knows, right? Question your own sanity, question everything except the official story, that's the rationale we are force fed. Trust your government. On the return visit to Iraq, to punish those "evil terrorists" and remove WMD's from Saddam, we eventually learned that no WMD's even existed, it was all fabricated, it was a complete scam -a smoke and mirrors effect that was staged to gain support for a preemptive strike, one not authorized by Congress.

    Am I too far off topic?

    Here's how I see it: This all happened so long ago, that it really doesn't matter much. I mean, Kennedy was assassinated, and look how long it took for us to begin looking at the evidence, hear eyewitness testimony, and demand the rest be unsealed so we may actually get to the bottom of this. We looked at WHO was officially the head of the Warren Commission, and it never occurred to people at the time, but these people really could be lying to the people and conspiring to undermine the republic. Look at who they were, who some became, and the company they kept. All one, big happy family. BUT WE ARE CRAZY to think that these government officials could possibly conspire for profit!!! How is the 9-11 commission any different? The whole thing was just another whitewash. Government investigating government. Give us a break!
     
    Brokor, Dec 27, 2010
    #44
  5. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    I reiterate my comment.
     
    Clyde, Dec 27, 2010
    #45
  6. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer


    Indeed, tons of armchair commandos.

    These two links examine the damage to building 7 in depth:
    Screw Loose Change: WTC 7
    WTC7 Damage

    The one at 911myths.com really shows the extent of the debris that came off tower one. In Loose Change, from the single perspective they show and from the one person they interview that was in the building, it does sound like a controlled detonation. When you see how much debris came from tower 1 in the links, it becomes quite evident how underestimated the damage was according to Loose Change and other CTs. Essentially, we are talking about nearly half the building being destroyed on the tower one side of the building. Even the goof ball they interviewed in Loose Change acknowledged the extensive damage to the lobby. His description pinned it as decimated.

    The extensive heat of the burning, fueled debris falling from about 600 feet onto the top of building can't be ignored. The fact that building burned for quite awhile probably has a lot to do with too. It seems the firefighters had a time getting back to it with the twin towers falling and finally determined it to be structurally unsound just before it fell.

    This also goes back to my point of a single discrepancy does not make a case. To chalk the whole deal up a gov't plot to kill thousands of Americans because a moronic college kid with one angle on a building said there was no way that debris did this does not make a case. There are several legit, honest firefighters that have stated otherwise....
     
    Hispeedal2, Dec 27, 2010
    #46
  7. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    This is amazing to me. Plumes of smoke coming from windows of a collapsing building. What are you expecting... a neat topple similar to lego physics? No dust or anything?

    To understand what caused a plume, you have to be able to see the origin of said plume. I say it's the steel infrastructure falling through concrete from the immense weight and heat of debris that fell from tower 1. As the building starts to give way, plumes of dust will be created. Concrete is crackling apart, heat is fuming for sky, and air is shifting to make way for the falling building. Dust (air) will be vented out somewhere to give way to that debris. I saw the same argument for the twin towers and the same physics apply to create those plumes as well.

    Highly more likely than sneaky guys loading a building with thousands of pounds of explosives and never being seen by a solitary person despite the fact that the building runs 24 hours a day.
     
    Hispeedal2, Dec 27, 2010
    #47
  8. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    And how long did that fuel burn? From the evidence I have seen, the fires were out before the building suddenly detonated.

    And all the firefighters interviewed over the years that I have seen said they witnessed loud explosions like controlled demolition.
    Indeed. Like the discrepancy of believing jet fuel can bring down structural steel skyscrapers, not once, not even twice, but three times in one day, when in the past other fires in skyscrapers burned for days and still left the skeletal steel intact.
    There are actually thousands of scientists and independent research crews who have been committed to the independent investigation of the 9-11 tragedy who disagree. This isn't just about one college kid, and I find your assessment to be irrational.

    As opposed to the hundreds of "crazy" firefighters who believe your version to be a cover-up?

    Let's face it -you are on one side of the fence, and no amount of evidence will sway your opinion. Let's just accept the fact that you WANT to believe and trust in the official story, and I simply cannot accept tyranny no matter how it is shoveled down the throats of the people. I will say this, and I know it may be a jab at you, but I can't resist since you have gone to the level of being ridiculous in your assertions...you would have served Hitler proud in condemning the people for questioning his Reichstag blaze. It was an act of terrorism in that time which cemented the Chancellorship for Hitler and ostracized the communists, proving to be a most convenient display of fear and horror.

    Who gains from terror? Some college kid, the firefighters of NYC, or the corporate cartels and secret government who wage war for profit? YOU DECIDE.
     
    Brokor, Dec 27, 2010
    #48
  9. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Brokor, Dec 27, 2010
    #49
  10. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    And if you actually knew my ethnic background, you may realize how laughable that statement is. Yes, I do ride one side of the fence on this one because the other side has little to no proof. Having examined both, the evil gov't may have actually got this one ~80% right. You could draw some conspiracies about following wars if you want. Maybe they did or didn't use 9-11 as an excuse for following actions. At best, they were opportunists. I too have seen the erosion of some rights as fall out from 9-11. To believe that it was orchestrated and has been since ??? probably means you have too much faith in fellow man. This is the same government and bureaucracy that can't do anything well together. For crying out loud, Slick Willy couldn't keep a blow job quiet and now all of a sudden they are capable of keeping a conspiracy of this size?

    Yes. The answer is yes. A college kid did benefit from this film. As with most CTs, the truth is rarely the issue. Money typically is. Most CTs hear an internal monologue when they get up in the morning.

    I agree. Separate analysis would put most of this crap behind us. It would have been a smart move to do so for the prior administration. I am also very sure that the outcome still be similar. Only, CTs would make some long, ridiculous link from the "independent review" to the powers that be. That is what they do.

    We seem to talk about these "scientists" and "experts" and now "firefighters" as if we should just swallow that they exist. This is the same generic technique used by the CTs to bring legitimacy to an unproven theory. If you say there are thousands or hundreds, am I just to buy that at face value? Hopefully they are better than the scientist in Loose Change that listed off every element used to build the WTC and then asserted that it had to be thermite?? It was true. If you examine the dust, you will find Al and Fe in the dust. The damn building is made of it.

    Here are what some real Scientists thought:
    Please read the whole article here:
    9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - World Trade Center - Pentagon - Flight 93 - Popular Mechanics

    Of course, the beauty of a CT is that all you have to say now is that PM is run by "them" and that's what "they" want you to think. Then draw some barely existent line between the editors at PM and the board at Bank of America...... the rest is cake.

    Here are some firefighter comments:
    The firefighters on the scene knew it was about to collapse. It was creaking and belching and ready to give way. Let me ask you something Brokor... you are a veteran too. Ever here a dumpster being slammed around and nearly hit the deck before you remind yourself where you are? A dumpster can fool us. What do you think several crashing burning buildings sounds like? You think there may be a few explosions (or sounds similar to) in such a circumstance?

    ​


    ​
     
    Hispeedal2, Dec 27, 2010
    #50
  11. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    That Popular Mechanics article has also been debunked because it's trash.

    I have heard loud noises before, but I know what a series of explosions sounds like, too. And all the firefighters interviewed can't all be wrong. ;)

    Anyway, I am bored of this. After almost 10 years nothing has changed on the side of the liberty movement. I have come to expect Slavery, Inc. to win. Take it easy, Al.
     
    Brokor, Dec 27, 2010
    #51
  12. Joseph Thomas

    Joseph Thomas Monkey+

    Brokor,

    My old team was up and in at the scene within six hours. Bldg 7 came down on it's own. I do not know how to convince you guys otherwise. All major catastrophes breed conspiracy theories. I understand that and I don't trust the federal government as far as I can throw it. But the U.S. Government did not cause 911 except in the form of it's visa and immigration policies. You have to remember that the government would screw up a circle jerk. They ain't that good.
     
    Joseph Thomas, Dec 28, 2010
    #52
  13. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Firefighters are really good at what they do, HOWEVER they are NOT Energetic Materials experts, and I am willing to bet that most have never even seen a real building demolition with Energetics, up close and PERSONAL. Folks, it isn't like in the movies, and it isn't anything like in War, or Battle situation. Unless you have experienced it first hand, your just guessing, or passing on, others opinions, who may, or may NOT, have a clue what they are talking about. There were no energetics used in the 9/11 deal, PERIOD. There have been NO Energetic chemical residue identified, on ANY of the debris, ever tested. No pieces of Detcord, no blasting cap pieces, no NOTHING, ever found, PERIOD. I am not telling Folks what they should believe, I am stating FACTs as they have been presented to 'Me", by people in the industry, that I know, that were consulting on the investigation. You are entitled to believe what you want, but these are the FACTS....
     
    BTPost, Dec 28, 2010
    #53
  14. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Please forgive me for not believing you.
    YouTube - WTC7 in Freefall--No Longer Controversial
    YouTube - MARVIN BUSH, BUILDING 7, AND FORBIDDEN QUESTIONS
    YouTube - Marvin Bush the WTC Power-Downs Just Prior to 9 11.flv
    YouTube - Marvin Bush Exposed ~ World Trade & D.C. Airport Security, Alex Jones & others.mp4

    I don't appreciate being lied to.
     
    Brokor, Dec 28, 2010
    #54
  15. dragonfly

    dragonfly Monkey+++

    I found at the ripe old age of 18 just how much the public had been lied to when I was located in that Great Southeast Asia Training Area.....RVN.
     
    dragonfly, Dec 28, 2010
    #55
  16. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    I have a couple of questions:

    When would have "they" loaded WTC building 7 with explosives? during the morning of the attack?
    How long does it take to et a 49 story building up to explode and drop?
    Did the power go out on that one as well?
    Why didnt 1 and 2 do the same?
     
    Quigley_Sharps, Dec 28, 2010
    #56
  17. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I believe the last 2 videos I posted reflect a possible answer to most of these questions. With security controlled by the Bush Dynasty, and a 4 1/2 year window to conduct frequent "re-wiring" and internal upgrades, with free reign to move crews throughout the WTC complex - it's definitely plausible this could have easily been done. All of the buildings dropped at near free-fall or faster than free-fall rates, defying gravity and physics if we conclude they simply collapsed due to fire. The kicker is, that the evidence -all the steel has been destroyed and disposed of in convenient fashion. All it would take to eliminate the "conspiracy theories" is for a single independent scientific study to be conducted on the metal structure remains to conclude that they do not have traces of explosive compounds...but, this was never established, and it cannot be done as far as I know.
     
    Brokor, Dec 28, 2010
    #57
  18. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Probably the most obvious answer for not testing for explosive residue is the glaring fact that 2 aircraft flew into towers 1 and 2.

    Here is the NIST info regarding the investigation:
    Here is NIST on the "free fall" rate of tower 7:
    A response about the thermite that may have supposedly been used:
    Here is the link to the NIST report. http://wtc.nist.gov/

    Interesting enough... the WTC steel was not instantly shipped away. Pieces are being held by NIST for any future questions:
    Convoy Returns World Trade Center Steel to New York City

    The reason why the conspiracy is so unbelievable to 99% of Americans is that one side has scientific evidence that is testable and repeatable. That, according to the scientific process, makes it fact. The other side has wild accusations that are unfounded and make crazy claims like all "the steel is gone" instead of filing for a subpoena from NIST and independently testing the metal. Of course, like I stated earlier and like NIST stated, the base elements of the building are the same as the base elements of thermite. That's the reason why thermite, not a normal explosive (incendiary really) to use in demolition, is in question. The CTs don't bring up regular explosives simply because there is no residue. Of course if they did that, they would be out of business and the youtube hits would move elsewhere. It's not about truth. It's about 5 minutes of fame and $$$.

    If anyone has any example of thermite being used in controlled demolition, I would love to hear it. One other example in history. Just one. You won't find one. Why? Because thermite is nearly impossible to control to that degree. The buildings would have toppled over asymmetrically since the rate of burn and the flow of thermite cannot be controlled resulting in columns cut through at differing times. I will run this by a CEXC / EOD dude tomorrow.
     
    Hispeedal2, Dec 28, 2010
    #58
  19. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    That's all I think we need to remember from that post, Al. The minimal amounts "kept" for study are off limits.

    Inside job.
     
    Brokor, Dec 28, 2010
    #59
  20. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Ye gods, Al!!! Don't post facts in the TFH lounge, you'll be taken for an alien!!
     
    ghrit, Dec 28, 2010
    #60
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