Possible out come of weaking dollar/High gas cost?

Discussion in 'Financial Cents' started by Quantrill, May 9, 2008.

  1. Quantrill

    Quantrill Monkey++

    Ok so today at work I had a thought. With the increased cost of gas/weaking dollar could communities become more of a micro economy?

    IF it cost to much to ship things in or whatever, maybe the small business could thrive once again?

    Think about it, This fuel crunch could cause more self reliant communities. Especially if it is cheaper to have farmer brown bring eggs to market than ship them in, or have bob cabinet maker make you new cabinets rather than ship them in, or what ever it is you need.

    This is just a weird thought I had today, if this were to happen maybe it would force America to be more of an agrarian society / self reliant society. Thus creating a micro economy, perhaps barter will make a comeback as our dollars loose their value?

    Any way I just wanted to see what you all thought of this. Feed back please.
  2. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    In therory you would think so, but the multi-nationals are and will fight this tooth and nail. They are trying to control the movement of livestock, plants will likely be next. If oil production is really peaking (which I believe it is) there may be no way to get around it, and the multi-nationals could just fall apart (we can only hope).

    On a side note DW and I are buying up livestock as fast as we can, the demand for farm raised food is out there and getting stronger with every news story about shortages and high prices. One friend of ours just bought a milk goat after him and his soon to be wife came to our farm for a milking lesson. Another woman that we know just asked my wife last night at work about buying a milk goat because milk is getting too expensive.

  3. MbRodge

    MbRodge Monkey+++

    It IS coming, but I don't know if the price is all the way there just yet. Give it a year, maybe more, and it WILL be there. It just makes good sense. If the farmer can turn a profit on surplus eggs AND people can save a buck a dozen buying them then it is a done deal. It sure would be nice to see those happy days come back.
  4. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I think there will be SOME resurgence of it but unless things collapse I dont think it will be so much as it used to be and dont expect to see a big return of the mom and pop places in the small towns.

    For one thing in order for this to happen on a large scale would take a total reshuffeling of most peoples mindsets and how the base producers do business. While some folks still have small flocks to lay or a family milk cow/goat and may even sell surplus, the eggs you buy in the store come from huge places with tens of thousands of chickens who have contracts to sell ALL their eggs just to the folks that ship them to stores, the milk from dairy farms that have contracts to sell ALL of their milk JUST to the dairy that processes it and bottels it for the stores and if they get caught selling ANY of it privately (in many contracts even if they get caught useing it themselves though generaly not enforced on that part) then they loose their contract and no longer have a market. A dairy farm now with ONLY say 80 head is considered small and most run holstine cattle that give around 5 gallon per milking twice a day, so thats 800 gallons per day from a SMALL dairy farm, it would be near impossible for most of them to sell 1/8 of that localy even after establishing a customer base, so they would go bankrupt and similarly for the eggs. Add to that that if they get caught selling them retail without a lisence then the gov screws them and (unless though very specific and expensive processes) it is also illegal to sell fresh raw milk for human consumption from what I have been told by a couple of different dairy farmers, it can ONLY be sold to dairies or for animal feed or with special lisence and even then would loose them their contracts. A very large portion of the farmers also farm on contract now and have a similar situation.

    The mom and pop places would actualy be hurt more by shipping than the big boys since the big boys have distribution hubs and send a truck load out to make a big circle to say 50 stores and drop off a pallet at each one so their fuel to deliver to each store could be looked at like the distance from the hub to the first store then for the second store its from the first to them and so on. Say mom and pop are across from the 5th store on the route and their supplier is across from the hub, their shipping may well be charged from supplier to them and be 5 times what it cost for the big boy across the street.

    Next you would have the way our society and demands have changed since we lived like that. In a local economy say in the midwest, oranges would be a specialty item because they HAVE to be shipped in, they dont grow here. Fresh fruit and vegitables in the spring and all through the year is simply expected now but in a local economy that relies on its own you only have what can be produced in that region and only around harvest time for it in that region. So people would have to go back to more canning fresh when its in season and only eat fresh at that time then eat it canned or frozen or do without it the rest of the time not buy fresh strawberries in December. Then theres the fact that unless its a mom and pop that takes everything in and sells it, we have gotten to spoiled on convenience and one stop shopping. While folks USED to go to the butcher for their meats then the produce market for their veggies then the baker for their bread and so on, most folks now are used to being able to buy new tires for their car, a new wardrobe, a few odds and ends for the repair job at the house and all of their groceries all at the same store and run it all out the same cashier then go home. Lots of folks would have a problem going back to getting each type of thing at its own location let alone each item due just to the convenience and or time factor or even for that mater something like a farmers market where they have to pick these items and wait to pay this guy then go to the next stand to pick something and pay him, especialy since they cant use cash so takes lots of checks since most farmers dont take bank cards. Add into the equation that if you have to go to each farmer to get the stuff then you are burning gas running around and kind of like I learned long ago in the city, trying to shop the sales at all the grocery stores lost money (even with cheaper gas) because if you save $2 at each store but have to spend $2.50 in gas to get from one to the next sale then you have spent more on the gas then you saved with the sale.

    Outside of the food market I think it would take an Argentina type collapse of our economy before you could buy hand made clothes localy for anywhere near the price of shipping them from Korea or Mexico and same goes for the cabnets made by the ever more rare skilled carpenter/cabnet maker rather than buying the ones prefabed from glue and saw dust in some huge plant most likely in a third wold country with the venier of your choice applied.

    Then comes the problem of the government, if all the locals are tradeing goods and bartering or dealing in cash then it get awfuly hard for our dear Uncle to get his cut of the action and he dont like that so would have to implement more regulations to put a stop to it or at least make you have to buy 'bootlegged' milk from a milk runner.

    Like I say, there has been SOME increase in it and I figure there will be more but I definatly dont see us getting back to a strongly localized economy in the US short of a collapse that fources it on us.
  5. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    OMG said something about them controlling plants; they have been doing this for decades and caused the demise of the small American farm. Look into wht Monsanto has done with all their hybrids They even sue people if their grain manages to pollenate with a private farmers fields. I also believe that they are mostly responsible for the shortage of bees and bats. Monsanto is part of the NWO.
  6. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Well it was a refreshingly positive view (at least until ogm tore it up with too much reality)...
    I would tend to agree the big players will not give up easily.and the goobmint wants to TAX (control) everything so barter really "burns their britches" (they would just legislate complete federal ownership of all food and labor, if they haven't already).

    I could see a return to rail and even sail...in a total peak oil collapse. People may start to move on their own to where the food, "jobs", and water are.(delivered to citiies (ports)
    by "world corp inc. ships"or rail..)
    Exactly what the u.n. wants , closely packed controllable cities,dotting wide open "biological diversity zones".
  7. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    Sorry Tango I have a bad habit of doing that from time to time. [beat]

    Monkeyman said
    This varries from state to state. Here in Mo. if you call the milk board they will tell you that it is illegal but if you read the law on the books it clearly is legal. It is done on a daily basis and openly avertized. Some other states this is not the case and it is illegal but there is uaslly a way to get around the law

  8. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    From what I had understood it was legal to sell it here so long as it wasnt for human consumption OR if you had the place inspected and met criteria and got a lisence to sell it.
  9. Quantrill

    Quantrill Monkey++

    Goat man has a point, they will stick their noses in. Of course where there is a will there is a way look at moonshine, drugs, or anything else VERBOTEN.

    I see the headlines now "Man busted in milk ring gets 20 years hard labor" I am not laughing though, I could see it happen.
  10. Jonas Parker

    Jonas Parker Hooligan

    I can see the headlines now.
    "US Agriculture Dept. Agents Shot Trying to Seize Cow."

    "County Prosecutor Refuses to Prosecute Farmer, Cites Texas "Castle Doctrine" Law."

    "County Sheriff Warns Feds: "Stay Out Of County!""

    "Job Fair at Courthouse Not a Success, No Takers for Dept of Ag. Enforcement Jobs"
  11. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member


    I accidentally read part of JP's response as Cattle Doctrine.

    ~Just thought I'd share a giggle~
  12. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    I use to have a link to the law but can't find it right now, but it is legal to sell for human consumption in Mo. with out being inspected.

  13. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If you've seen the law on it will take your word for it, I just knew what had been told and that even the Amish around here hat sell milk have their lisences up for it. They may well have simply been given misinformation by the folks issueing the lisences to make them THINK they had to have them, we all know that wouldnt be anything new.
  14. Jonas Parker

    Jonas Parker Hooligan

    Just watch where you step inside the "Cattle Castle"...
  15. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    I'm not trying to high jack this tread, but I know someone who is very up on the laws and will know the link to it. I'll see if she can send it to me and I will send it to you. ;)

  16. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Cool, like I say, I was just going on hear say from folks I ASSUMED (generaly not good) knew since they were selling it.
  17. FalconDance

    FalconDance Neighborhood Witch

    Remember, mm, they only go by what the officials tell them is law --- and we all know that may or may not be accurate. Sometimes I think govt employees are chosen from those who fail IQ and performance tests rather than the other way around.
  18. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    Here you go MM it took some digging but I found it. [beer]


    Farmers can sell raw milk and cream to the final consumer either on the farm or through delivery without being required to have a permit. Those interested in selling raw milk and cream other than on-farm or through delivery (e.g., farmers markets) must obtain a retail raw milk permit from the state and must have state approved bottling equipment on the premises. In addition, farmers with a retail raw milk permit must comply with state labeling regulations for raw milk and raw milk
    Missouri Statutes
    196.935. State milk inspection required on all graded fluid milk or milk products pasteurization required, exception.
    No person shall sell, offer for sale, expose for sale, transport, or deliver any graded fluid milk or graded fluid milk products in this state unless the milk or milk products are graded and produced, transported, processed, manufactured, distributed, labeled and sold under state milk inspection and the same has also been produced or pasteurized as required by a regulation authorized by section 196.939 and under proper permits issued thereunder. Only pasteurized graded fluid milk and fluid milk products as defined in subdivision (3) of section 196.931 shall be sold to the final consumer, or to restaurants, soda fountains, grocery stores, or similar establishments; except an individual may purchase and have delivered to him for his own use raw milk or cream from a farm.
    Missouri Regulations
    Division 80 State Milk Board
    Chapter 3 Production and Distribution of Grade A Retail Raw Milk and Milk Products
    2 CSR 80-3.030 Permits
    1) Every producer-distributor producing and distributing Grade A retail raw milk under terms of these regulations shall secure a permit from the state authority. Only a person who complies with the requirements of these regulations shall be entitled to receive and retain such a permit. Permits shall not be transferable with respect to persons, locations, or both.
    2 CSR 80-3.070 The Grading of Milk and Milk Products
    PURPOSE: This rule provides standards which Grade A retail raw milk and milk products must meet. This rule was previously known as Section 7.
    25. Bottling and capping. Milk and milk products not for pasteurization shall be bottled on the farm where produced. Bottling and capping shall be done in a sanitary manner by means of approved equipment and these operations shall be integral in one (1) machine. Caps or cap stock shall be purchased in sanitary containers and shall be kept in a clean, dry place until used.
    2 CSR 80-3.040 Labeling
    PURPOSE: This rule provides regulations for the proper labeling of Grade A retail raw milk or milk products. This rule was previously known as Section 4.
    (1) All bottles and other containers enclosing milk, skim milk or cream as defined in 2 CSR 80-3.010 shall be plainly labeled with the name of the contents as given in the definition of these regulations; the word raw; the grade of the contents; and the name and address of the producer-distributor.
    (2) The label shall be in letters of an approved size, kind and color, and shall contain no marks or words which are misleading.

  19. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Cool, thanks for posting it.
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