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President Obama

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Blackjack, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I'll start off by saying that I'm writing this, not to start any fights (though it's likely to), but because I was asked to clarify my position by another member whom I respect and have come to view as a friend, and it made me really start thinking. I've come to respect a lot of the "old timers" on this forum, and that's not a term I throw around lightly. There are some damn good folks here. I even had the pleasure of meeting one of the other "Monkeys" and his family in person once, and I'm really glad I did, they're great people, and I hope to meet more someday. There's not a single one of you, even those I often argue with, that I wouldn't gladly share some beer over a campfire with.

    Most of us Monkeys are, at our core, very much alike. We mostly want and value the same things. We are an independant bunch, we believe that we are responsible for our own security and well being, but at the same time, we're mostly the kind of folk that very willingly extend a helping hand. I've seen that trait on this site many times, and it makes me proud. We value family, friends, loyalty, manners and respect. Sometimes when we come across differences, like in politics or religion, those differences get amplified. If two things are 90% alike, then what tends to stand out is the 10% that's different.

    A glaring part of my 10% is what I'm going to address...... The Obama administration. I know that most here won't agree with me, I'm not asking anybody to agree, I'm just stating my own opinion.

    At my core, I am mostly a Libertarian, and so I certainly understand anybody that doesn't like what's going on in this country. With that said.......

    I don't think that Obama is a "secret Muslim", and I don't think he has any plans on becoming a dictator. I don't think he's intentionally ruining our economy in order to "seize control" of anything, and I believe that he most likely is a U.S. citizen with a valid birth certificate.

    I don't think that showing respect to and a willingness to work with, instead of against other countries and cultures makes us appear weak, I think it makes us appear wise, and having watched many of O's speeches, I have not once had the impression that he would be weak or indecisive in a crisis situation. I truly believe that we are a lot safer under Obama than we were under Bush, or if McCain had won the election.

    I'm extremely happy to finally have someone representing us on the world stage that is intelligent and personable rather than the dullard that's been our mouthpiece for the last 8 years.

    People tend to look at the spectrum of socialst/capitalism and see European countries waaay on the socialist side and us waaay on the capitalist side. Something like this:


    But, I believe, the truth is that we are really not much different than they, nor have we been for a long time. A truer representation would be.


    How many times have we heard someone proclaim that "there has never been a successful socialist country in the world", well, much of Europe is fairly successful and so is the United States, and the truth is that there is a whole lot of socialism here. So I will site the United States as a successful socialist nation. I don't think we're beyond repair yet.

    We live with successful (albeit not ideal) socialist institutions every day. Our police protection, fire departments, emergency room care, social security, government housing, public schools, food stamps, medicare, medicaid, our military, our municipal water supplies, our highways, and many more...... all publicly funded (socialist). All of them flawed, all needing improvement, but overall they are working.

    This is why I'm for a public health care option. I can't see accepting all of the above social programs, and then drawing the line at healthcare and allowing our citizens to die if they don't have enough money to make the insurance company ceo's richer. I lived in Europe for more than 2 years, and I never saw the "lines and waiting lists" that opponents of public health care talk about. In fact, I never heard a single person complain about their health care. I hear LOTS of complaints here in the states, but most of the complaints aren't about the care, they're about the insurance companies.

    We haven't had a "free market economy" for a long time. The big corps get billions in tax breaks and incentives which we, the little guy, have to pay for. We work for them our entire lives, making them rich, we put our lives on the line in the military defending their interests (or does anyone actually believe we're in Iraq defending our freedom.... please), and then we, en masse, rise up against percieved "socialism" when the big corps are threatened with having to give a little of that back. They get the best of both capitalism and socialism, and we get the worst of both.We have been HAD, and then we defend them. It's crazy.

    This country is not, has never been, and never will be the Libertarian place that I would like it to be. Politics is corrupt, and has gone very astray of our constitution, but within that very flawed, but very real framework, I think that the Obama administration is taking us in a better direction than we've been going for a long time. I think that Obama really is trying his best to make this country better, as well as clean up some of the messes we've made.

    Maybe I have been fooled, or maybe I'm fooling myself. Maybe he really is the power hungry, wannabe dictator with a god complex that the far right claims. Time will tell, but I will remain hopeful until then.
  2. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    While I agree with many of your points Blackjack, there are an equal number with which I disagree. First, the safety of our nation under Obama vs Bush. While the appearance of safety may exist at the moment, how safe will we be after 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 7 8 yrs if the current administration follows the path it is now pursuing? National defense is not something on which we can afford to gamble. The strength of our defense is like a road built by many paving stones, each carefully placed and secured by the placement of the next. Throwing pebbles on the grass does not built a road. While you may see Mr Bush as a dullard, I perceive him as a man who did what had to be done, knowing that the perception of him was the price he personally had to pay. While I didn't agree with everything he did, I had respect for him.

    Like you, I don't think that Mr Obama is an evil man, but I do think he is a man of extreme ambition who is a pawn for some who may be evil. I truly believe that he is leading our country down a dangerous path so far removed from the founder's intent that we may never return to our origins.

    As far as health care goes, we can all agree that while our system affords us some of the best health care available in the world, the cost prohibits some Americans from availing themselves from of its benefits. Some of us pay dearly for our insurance which we can only hope will provide the coverage we might need. My own health insurance now costs me $1,446 a month and it's not the best out there but it's all I can afford. I, too, have seen nationalized health care in other countries but unlike you, my foreign friends are constantly complaining about not only the quality of the care but the availability. Sure, a trip to the clinic doesn't cost them out of pocket but they may sit in the waiting room for an entire day before they see a doctor. Because of that, they frequently avoid attempting medical care until they are very sick. I also have first hand knowledge of the taxes paid by citizens of countries with nationalized health care. A $3,000 paycheck nets slightly less than $1,200. That's a pretty steep tax bite by anyone's standard and their health care system is not better than what is available to us.

    Our military already have a form of nationalized health care and having been in a position to use this system for many years, I can tell you it has many pitfalls. Your care is only as good as the doctor/dentist you see based on who's on duty. There is no choice involved and as the old adage goes, not every doctor graduated at the top of their class. Someone had to be at the bottom of the list but they still received their MD.

    There is much to be considered as we face the problems of our country and I'm glad that, in our little village, right or wrong, we can speak our mind without ridicule. There are a few professional politicians who need to join us here to see how things CAN work
  3. The Expendable

    The Expendable Bread and Circus Master

    I agree with Righthand. I don't think that BHO has evil desires for our nation, but many of the policies he and some members of his party have planned run counter to the intents of the founders of our great land. Blackjack's comment about America already being a socialist nation is absolutely correct. In fact, there are no purely socialist nor capitalist societies on earth. Every nation is a socialist nation to some extent. However, I beleve that our President is trying to create an even more socialist America. Is he doing it to wreck the nation? No, he truly believes that he is doing what's best for America.

    When W was in office, the left used to say that he wanted to starve children or he wanted to pollute the environment. What a cowardly thing to say. Do you really believe that Bush sat up at night thinking of ways that he could starve children? Of course not. To say he WANTED to do it is using hurtful rhetoric to turn America against him. Now the right is doing the same thing to Obama. It wasn't right coming from the Dems and it isn't right coming from the Reps.

    I believe that Barack Obama is an American citizen. He was questioned about it and produce a birth certificate showing his American birth. Some people were not convinced and claimed it was a forgery. I say that those people would never be satisfied. I'm not sure what proof they would accept. They are the same people who believe we never landed on the moon. It's very easy to come up with "evidence" that Obama is not an American, or that Neil Armstrong did his moonwalk in Arizona. People hear what they want to hear.

    There is a lot that I don't like about Barack Obama. I do think he is ruining our country. He frightens me. I believe we may have reached a tipping point in our country. The plebs have found out they can vote themselves bread and circuses. For all BHO's failings, he is an American who has good intentions. Let's just hope that he's not paving a road to hell with those good intentions.
  4. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well put. The more I study Iran, the better I think Bush was as a president. When you actually read about the inroads made, and the terrorist attacks that were stopped, in my mind there is no doubt that Bush made us safer. Now Obama wants to close Gitmo, and make drastic reductions to the military. It's funny how he wants to blame the Bush administration, and even the NY Post stated it had become policy in the Obama administration to play the blame game, instead of continuing the push to remove Islamic fascist from the planet. Obama does not have the stomach to do what has to be done. I think that Obama's biggest problem is that he is ignorant and he looks at the world through rose colored glasses, there is no Utopia (except in Texas pop. 241 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia,_Texas) and I think that Obama has no idea how evil parts of this world are. If he had performed even the most rudimentary study on Iran, he would have never issued forth the statement that they deserved nuclear energy, because the rest of the world knows that they are not doing it for the energy. I also fear that like his Clinton predecessors, Obama believes it takes a village to raise a child, and to determine what the best decisions are for each individual. While the U.S. has been creeping closer and closer to bigger government and socialism, Obama might as well put a sign on the capitol that says "Kremlin West." We have crossed a line in the last six months that I fear will have ramifications for many years to come.

    I do not believe that Obama is evil, but I think that his socialist tendencies are going to be our ruin. Being a "community organizer" does not exactly give someone the necessary experience to run the most powerful country on the planet. This past election was a joke, an articulate, inexperienced, liberal jr. senator vs. an old man that tried to pass himself off as a conservative when his party knew better. The U.S. was the loser. During our economic plunge, wouldn't having someone that actually ran their own business and was a success like Mitt Romney been a good choice? While I admire McCain's military record, besides that neither one of the candidates ever did anything on their own.

    Obama may not be a Muslim, I haven't given it that much thought as he professes to be a Christian, but he was taught early in life in Muslim schools. This no doubt has had a impact if you listened to his speech to the Muslim world, it made me want to vomit. Obama's dictating to Israel that they should not continue to expand settlements on the West Bank is rediculous. Last time I checked that was their land. How about Israel dictates to the U.S. to quit building in Manhatten, after all it belonged to the native American indians before it was ours. The people of Israel have earned their soil, and paid for it in blood. I am not a Jew, but as a Christian I would love to see Israeli bulldozers clean the rock of that abomination that is the mosque and to see the return of The Temple Of God to it's rightful place on the Temple Mount.

    While most on this board seem to have the same beliefs in our inner core, it is good to have open discussion. I do believe that diversity makes the group stronger. Listening to each other, and having open discussions helps to keep the coms open, and the group better informed. If we all thought the same thing, well we wouldn't need this forum would we? Blackjack it took a lot of guts to admit to being a Obama supporter on a conservative forum, and not just a anonymous forum but one full of friends that you have had for years. We will just have to agree to disagree, and pray for the best for our country.
  5. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I remember these vividly, even back in the Bush Sr admin, in fact I was just discussing that with someone the other day. I remember the school lunch thing when dems bussed in a bunch of people with cafeteria trays that said "please don't starve our children", and "republicans want our kids to starve". It was nuts, and it really turned me off the the dems at the time. And now that's the same kind of stuff I hear coming from the republicans.

    I have no doubt that the majority of politicians, on both sides, are not looking out for us. I can name just as many bad democrats as bad republicans, it's just that right now the repubs seem to be showing their collective asses more. I can't stand the Clintons, Kerry, Pelosi, Gore. I think lining their pockets is much higher on their list of priorities than the people they represent, and they can't tell the truth to save their lives.

    I really do, however, believe that Obama is a cut above the afforementioned crooks. He's not perfect, and I'm sure I will have a problem with many of his policies before he leaves office, but imo, he is a heck of a lot better than most, and it is a step in the right direction.

    RH, I understand completely about what your saying when it comes to defense, but I think those "paving stones" that have been laid in previous decades have been laid pointing towards a cliff. Most of our disagreement will be founded on the intentions of GWB, in this case you (and many others) think he was honest and doing his best, I (and many others) do not, and since there is no way to completely know for sure what's in the man's heart, it's a point we'll never agree on, that's ok.

    For health care, again, we apparently have different experiences there. Just to be clear, I'm for a public health care option, not necessarily a gov only plan. I think the private insurance companies are looting the system beyond measure and making the whole system far less effective than even a gov run system would be.

    I thank you guys for the well thought out and reasonable responses. There's plenty of room for good debate on this stuff without just resorting to good/bad, right/wrong.

    p.s. EL: That's something I know everyone agrees with on here, we all just want the best when it comes to the future of this country we all love.
  6. The Expendable

    The Expendable Bread and Circus Master

    Just as long as you know that we're right and you're wrong! (j/k) :)
  7. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++


    Cheers, mate.
  8. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    If the guberment does force us into a public health care plan how are we going to pay for this?

    The government borrows money every year, for programs and endless ABC departments of government, that we don't have. The only way I can see that this could be afforded is to either borrow more money or raise taxes even higher than they already are. The money has to come from somewhere.

    I'm tired of all the governments running in the red instead of spending only what they have. I would vote for any person regardless of what political hat they wore if they were able to reign in the careless government spending that has been going on for decades.

    Enough is enough, my pockets aren't deep enough to keep up with all the programs and depts. of current government as it is, let alone adding new ones to the list. Both parties are guilty of bleeding us dry, I feel like they are going to start sucking the marrow from my bones.
  9. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    A) I'm not for forcing people into a plan when their happy with what they've got. I'm for a gov funded option (which could and should help keep the private insurance companies in check).

    B) We pay for a lot of it already, and those who pay their own insurance company pays way too much for all of it. Right now, anyone who can't get insurance and can't afford the care uses the emergency room as their doctor, and we end up paying way more for that than we otherwise would.

    We pay much more per capita for health care than any other country, and we're not even close to the top in overall health of it's people. In other words we're getting very little for a whole lot of money. We don't have to spend a bunch more, we just need to spend smarter, and with the average health insurance ceo salary being right around 14 million a year, it's not tough to figure where we should start cutting. They are middlemen, they do nothing that we need, they just suck up money that could be going to our healthcare.

    And it's not even completely about how are we going to pay for it. It's about what's right. No, in essence it's not right to make me (for instance) pay for Bob's healthcare. But we're not living in that perfect world, we live in a society where some things have to be collectively paid for. How can I possibly make Bob pay for my roads, schools, water, military, police, and fire, and then draw the line at paying for healthcare needed to save Bob's life? Or the lives of his children?

    I knew a woman who died of cancer that had no insurance and couldn't afford treatment. No family or rich friends to save her, even though she worked (at a low paying job, but made too much for medicaid) for some 15 or so years helping to make the owner's of the business (whom I also knew) very wealthy. She had two kids, she was a nice lady. In this system that we live in, in the richest country in the world, where we have our pet's medications delivered to our door, we let her die. It's NOT RIGHT.

    We never seem to have trouble finding the money to pay for killing people, how 'bout spending some to save them.
  10. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The cost of Medicare -- the purest form of a government-run "public choice" for seniors -- will start exceeding its payroll-tax "trust fund" in 2017. The Obama administration estimates its health reforms will cost as much as $1.5 trillion over the next 10 years. It is no coincidence the Obama budget nearly triples the national debt over that same period.The public option puts government firmly in the middle of the relationship between patients and their doctors. If you think insurance companies are bad, imagine what happens when government is the insurance carrier, with little or no competition and no concern you'll change to another company.
    Medicare pays hospitals 71% and doctors 81% of what private insurers pay.
    Who covers the rest? Government passes the bill for the outstanding balance to providers and families not covered by government programs. This cost-shifting amounts to a forced subsidy. Families pay about $1,800 more a year for someone else's health care as a result, according to a recent study by Milliman Inc. It's also why many doctors limit how many Medicare patients they take: They can afford only so much charity care.
    Fixing prices at less than market rates will continue under any public option. Sen. Edward Kennedy's proposal, for example, has Washington paying providers what Medicare does plus 10%. That will lead to health providers offering less care.
    government-run health insurance would crater the private insurance market, forcing most Americans onto the government plan. The Lewin Group estimates 70% of people with private insurance -- 120 million Americans -- will quickly lose what they now get from private companies and be forced onto the government-run rolls as businesses decide it is more cost-effective for them to drop coverage. They'd be happy to shift some of the expense -- and all of the administration headaches -- to Washington. And once the private insurance market has been dismantled it will be gone. forever.........
    Why should I be forced to pay for someones health care that shot drugs, smoked and ate them selfs into the death bed when i took care of my self all along and have no health expenses? Or why should i be forced to pay for someone who has never been made to pay taxes into the system in the first place? ( 10 million or more illegal immigrants)

    Government health care advocates used to sing the praises of Britain's National Health Service (NHS). That's until its poor delivery of health care services became known. A recent study by David Green and Laura Casper, "Delay, Denial and Dilution," written for the London-based Institute of Economic Affairs, concludes that the NHS health care services are just about the worst in the developed world. The head of the World Health Organization calculated that Britain has as many as 25,000 unnecessary cancer deaths a year because of under-provision of care. Twelve percent of specialists surveyed admitted refusing kidney dialysis to patients suffering from kidney failure because of limits on cash. Waiting lists for medical treatment have become so long that there are now "waiting lists" for the waiting list. Government health care advocates sing the praises of Canada's single-payer system. Canada's government system isn't that different from Britain's. For example, after a Canadian has been referred to a specialist, the waiting list for gynecological surgery is four to 12 weeks, cataract removal 12 to 18 weeks, tonsillectomy three to 36 weeks and neurosurgery five to 30 weeks. Toronto-area hospitals, concerned about lawsuits, ask patients to sign a legal release accepting that while delays in treatment may jeopardize their health, they nevertheless hold the hospital blameless. Canadians have an option Britainers don't: close proximity of American hospitals. In fact, the Canadian government spends over $1 billion each year for Canadians to receive medical treatment in our country. I wonder how much money the U.S. government spends for Americans to be treated in Canada.
    "OK," you say, "Sweden is the world's socialist wonder." Sven R. Larson tells about some of Sweden's problems in "Lesson from Sweden's Universal Health System: Tales from the Health-care Crypt," published in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons (Spring 2008). Mr. D., a Gothenburg multiple sclerosis patient, was prescribed a new drug. His doctor's request was denied because the drug was 33 percent more expensive than the older medicine. Mr. D. offered to pay for the medicine himself but was prevented from doing so. The bureaucrats said it would set a bad precedent and lead to unequal access to medicine.
    Malmo, with its 280,000 residents, is Sweden's third-largest city. To see a physician, a patient must go to one of two local clinics before they can see a specialist. The clinics have security guards to keep patients from getting unruly as they wait hours to see a doctor. The guards also prevent new patients from entering the clinic when the waiting room is considered full. Uppsala, a city with 200,000 people, has only one specialist in mammography. Sweden's National Cancer Foundation reports that in a few years most Swedish women will not have access to mammography.
    Dr. Olle Stendahl, a professor of medicine at Linkoping University, pointed out a side effect of government-run medicine: its impact on innovation. He said, "In our budget-government health care there is no room for curious, young physicians and other professionals to challenge established views. New knowledge is not attractive but typically considered a problem (that brings) increased costs and disturbances in today's slimmed-down health care."
    These are just a few of the problems of Sweden's single-payer government-run health care system. I wonder how many Americans would like a system that would, as in the case of Mr. D. of Gothenburg, prohibit private purchase of your own medicine if the government refused paying. We have problems in our health care system but most of them are a result of too much government. Over 50 percent of health care expenditures in our country are made by government. Government health care advocates might say that they will avoid the horrors of other government-run systems. Don't believe them.
    The American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, who published Sven Larson's paper, is a group of liberty-oriented doctors and health care practitioners who haven't sold their members down the socialist river as have other medical associations. They deserve our thanks for being a major player in the '90s defeat of "Hillary care."

    [/FONT]Wouldn't a simple and targeted solution to healthcare for those who don't have it be to just fully fund and expand eligibility for Medicaid? Program and bureaucracy is already in place, just expand beyond the current population and fund it. Would have to be cheaper than the proposal. Would this work if indeed the true agenda is to help those without and not to break the current system?
  11. The Expendable

    The Expendable Bread and Circus Master

    QS, excellent article. Thanks for posting it.
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Thankyou Blackjack.

    Thank you one and all for keeping this civil, I desparately want to find a little truth in all the noise.
    It takes "balls"( "guts" for right hand) to walk up to the pool table , clear the balls off with a sweep of a stick. unzip and lay your opinions on the felt for all to measure
    in the light of day. :)
  13. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Jimmy Carter is back in the White House. We are still trying to fix the messes he made in the 1970s. BHOs biggest problem is that he has no experience. Libertarian = no taxes outside of constitution. Elimination of all non-constitutional agencies, and a return to freedom.

    BHO stands for none of this. John McCain stood for none of this. There is no difference other than who will protect our nation and stand with our allies. BHO will do more harm than good in these two areas.
  14. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Jimmy Carter is back in the White House. We are still trying to fix the messes he made in the 1970s. BHOs biggest problem is that he has no experience. Libertarian = no taxes outside of constitution. Elimination of all non-constitutional agencies, and a return to freedom.

    BHO stands for none of this. John McCain stood for none of this. There is no difference other than who will protect our nation and stand with our allies. BHO will do more harm than good in these two areas.
  15. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Here ya go, Prime example of "Government run health care" in this country now.
    With Doc assisted suicide making its way, how are you going to feel about them calling up one day saying thats that only course they are willing to pay for?
  16. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Hey my wife went in for a new persistent cough (9 months duration ), she got an inhaler; ( no chest x-ray. only after a thorough endometrial cancer follow up (whole body scan) did they turn up a " thing " in her lung. eventually lead to an in incident of blood in her cough, then lobectomy...
    And we have have great employer*(hospital ) provided health care!
    hacks are every where...
  17. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Your points don't hold water.

    "[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To see a physician, a patient must go to one of two local clinics before they can see a specialist. The clinics have security guards to keep patients from getting unruly as they wait hours to see a doctor. The guards also prevent new patients from entering the clinic when the waiting room is considered full."

    We have that situation for the uninsured right here in the US, right now. I worked at the U of Louisville Hospital as one of those security guards. We had people waiting up to 12 plus hours to see a doctor. On slow days you'd still average a 5-7 hour wait, and Louisville is only the 16the largest city in the US.

    Item Sweden USA
    Healthcare cost % of GDP [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sweden[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10.4 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]USA[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]14.2
    Per Captia expenditure on health [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sweden[/FONT] 3,349 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]USA[/FONT]5,511
    Physicians per 1000 people [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sweden[/FONT] 3.28 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]USA[/FONT]2.56
    Nurses per 1000 people [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sweden [/FONT]10.24 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]USA[/FONT]9.37
    Life Expectancy [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sweden [/FONT]80.1 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]USA[/FONT]79.5
    Infant Mortality [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sweden[/FONT]Rate 3.0 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]USA[/FONT] 6.0

    So which part is so bad compared to us?
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
    And from an earlier thread regarding torture:
    Up to an estimated 23,000 people in the US die every year because they don't have health insurance. Let's assume that number is way too high and only call it 1,000. Your fine with torturing people to save a single American life, but for god's sake don't spend a dollar. And it's not even a matter of spending more, the numbers show that Sweden spends less and gets more.

    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

  18. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    I never said I was against giving everyone health care, don't put words into my mouth, "for god sakes don't spend a dollar" Is what you said not me, i just dont like the way its being spent. and I don't like the direction they are going to get it.
    You said at the beginning of this tread you were not using this forum for fighting if that is the case then why bring up another thread?
    If you turn this onto a personal fight forum for you to play in I will lock it down.
  19. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Hoookay...opposite corners fora brew... we knew this was a hot button issue.
  20. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Yep a hot issue for sure and i quoted some articles that wasn't personal and blackjack instantly took it to there. he's the one who cant discuss without using inflammatory remarks and quotes not me.
    I paid over 25 k in taxes last year, and when i filed I had to pay another 5k I have the right to discuss where my money goes......How much did you contribute to the Gov money coffer?
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