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Printing money = collapse near

Discussion in 'Financial Cents' started by CATO, Aug 30, 2015.

  1. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Central banks can’t save the markets from a crash. They shouldn’t even try | Business | The Guardian

    Central banks can’t save the markets from a crash. They shouldn’t even try
    Alarming data from China was met with a soothing hint about monetary policy. But treasuries cannot keep pumping cheap credit into a series of asset bubbles
    Financiers have come to expect central banks to help them out. Illustration: David Simonds for the Observer

    Sunday 30 August 201504.00 EDT

    Like children clinging to their parents, stock market traders turned to their central banks last week as they sought protection from the frightening economic figures coming out of China. Surely, they asked, the central banks would ward off the approaching bogeymen, as they had so many times since the 2008 crash.

    The USFederal Reservecame up with the goods. William Dudley, president of the bank’s New York branch, hinted that the interest rate rise many had expected next month was likely to be delayed.

    A signal that borrowing costs would remain at rock bottom was all it took. After Black Monday and Wobbly Tuesday, the markets recovered to regain almost all their recent losses.

    Bank of Englandstopped at £375bn. The Bank of Japan is still adding to its post-crash stimulus with around $700bn a year and the Frankfurt-based European Central Bank will have matched its cousin in Tokyo by the end of the year.

    In each case, the central bank has adopted quantitative easing, which involves buying government debt to drive up its price. A higher price lowers the returns and encourages investors to go elsewhere in search of gains. It has meant a big shift in the portfolios of fund managers in favour of shares. Apart from a few blips due to the Greek crisis, stock markets have boomed. This summer, the FTSE 100 soared past 2008 levels to top its 1999 peak.

    But China, which has borrowed heavily to keep its economy moving, is running out of steam. Beijing has said it does not want to encourage another borrowing boom. But to prevent a crash, it is doing just that. In the last two weeks it has cut interest rates and loosened borrowing limits. It has even invested directly in the market, buying the shares of smaller companies.

    So we face the shocking prospect of central bankers, in thrall to stock market gyrations, making the world a more unstable place with promises of yet more cheap credit.

    There are a few alternative courses of action that Bank of England governorMark Carneycould still propose. He could tell politicians that the only sustainable way to get their economies moving is with hard cash from taxed wealth and incomes. If that is too unpalatable, governments should borrow directly to fund public infrastructure and productivity improvements.

    And if the government is too embarrassed to admit to voters that it needs to borrow money, then the least central banks can do is sign deals with high street banks to lend, rather than hoping they will take QE funds and do something useful with them. Because the evidence is already there for all to see that investors would prefer to pump the money into the stock market and property, both of them inherently unstable and prone to violent crashes.

    Google feels the EU heat
    ‘We have owned the internet,” Barack Obama crowed in a video interview this February. “Our companies have created it, expanded it, perfected it.” But from tax to privacy and now a string of antitrust investigations, one of those companies,Google, is under attack on multiple fronts in Europe.

    The US president argued that what has been presented as high-minded intervention by regulators is in fact a commercially driven bid to protect old-world technology companies from the Silicon Valley invaders.

    Europe’s most powerful regulator, the Brussels competition policy chief Margrethe Vestager,has taken aim at Google Shopping, its price-comparison service. In April, she launched a legal process that could result in a big fine. On Thursday, the search giant filed a 150-page rebuttal.

    First of all, Google says it has not choked off traffic to rival shopping price sites – the traffic it sends to these kinds of sites has increased by 227% over a decade (its own data shows). Sounds like a big number. Until you look at the growth in Google’s own traffic over that period. The number of searches worldwide now stands at somewhere near 1.2 trillion a year – an increase of 750% in a decade.

    Google also wants its shopping service considered as part of a much larger group that includes actual retailers, like Amazon, and marketplaces, like eBay, where people also go to compare prices. Perhaps, but these are very different businesses. The capital needed to launch an online retailer, let alone one with a global presence and a one-day delivery guarantee, is much larger than the funding required for a price-comparison startup.

    Google’s strongest point is that forcing a company to offer its services to rivals is a drastic measure normally reserved for monopoly utilities. Google is very useful, but it is not water or electricity. Google Shopping is a very niche service.

    The argument about fair price comparison is a sideshow given the much bigger worries about privacy, security and tax that currently dog the digital world. But a victory for regulators here could lead to more assaults – on Google’s flight-comparison service and maps. Vestager has also launched an investigation into Android, the group’s market-leading phone software. Obama may be called on to cheer the home team again before this fight is over.

    Two sides to the national living wage?

    George Osborne has already claimed credit for Sainsbury’s increasing the base pay of its shop floor staff by 4%. “Britain deserves a pay rise so great Sainsbury’s staff will be paid at least national living wage early with biggest increases in 10 years,” he tweeted last week.

    It is a indeed a credit to the chancellor that he has put pay on the agenda for Britain’s supermarkets, the country’s largest private employers, by announcing a national living wage in the budget last month. However, Sainsbury’s announcement is just one side of the coin: the other side is how it will finance the pay increase.

    The Office for Budget Responsibility has estimated that the chancellor’s national living wage will lead to 60,000 job losses as companies fund the higher minimum pay by cutting jobs. Moody’s, the credit rating agency, has warned retailers could close stores, increase prices and employ more under-25s – who do not qualify for the national living wage. Perks for staff, such as in-store discounts, could also be at risk.

    Sainsbury’s did not downgrade its profit forecasts at the same time as announcing the pay increase, so it must have found the money from somewhere – time will tell where.
  2. techsar

    techsar Monkey++

    So as the financial house of cards is encouraged to be built higher and higher, the size of the sneeze required to topple it becomes evermore minuscule.
    When (not if) the collapse occurs the cards are going to scatter, taking with them any sense of order.
    1929 will look like a small speedbump. Let us hope it doesn't take another world war to pull things out of the slump!
  3. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja Jedi Bipolar WINNING M.L.F.

    Carney is a scumbag....formerly Head of Bank of Canada.
    clang clang silver....
  4. Gopherman

    Gopherman Sometimes I Wish I Could Go Back to Sleep Site Supporter++

    During the "Great Depression" there were soup lines that stretched on forever. Everyday, several times a day, people would have to line up just to get a bowl of soup and maybe a piece of bread.
    At that point in History estimates vary, but tend to hover around 10 million affected by homelessness and starvation.
    Today we have 93 million people on Gov. Assistance they just don't stand in line, except at Wal-Mart which readily takes EBT cards.
    Several months ago, a glitch in the system prevented people to use their Ebt cards and sparked a crisis, though short lived, scared the H^&% out of the local Govt's. across 17 affected states. Later that same day the system came back online, however Wal-Mart could not read credit limits on cards.
    The decision was made at a Corporate level to go ahead and just let people get what they wanted and they would settle up with Uncle Sam when the smoke cleared.
    Once people realized this they quickly got on the phone with everyone they knew and Wal-Mart was swamped with freeloaders there to exploit the temporary glitch.
    When the system came back up, one woman standing in line had purchased over $800 worth of food and her card only had .47c on it. she just walked out as did everyone else, just leaving the carts in the isle.
    This crash will be so much worse than this IMHO!!!
    pearlselby, Tully Mars, Dont and 3 others like this.
  5. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY

    Man- I think you are SO "right" Gopher-

    I'm a (little bit) of a technophile...
    and I DO "hate".. (yes HATE) this completely synthetic / unhealthy financial system we are in.
    [where "budgets" NEVER "balance"... hence.. (obviously) do not - even - truly - matter]
    [it is PURELY designed to be exploited by the Rich-powerful... who USE this system]

    - at the "Height" of my professional Life (when I HAD ONE here in New York) I worked in a huge co-Location Data Center of global scope. We housed many / multiple fortune 500 company's mainframes-Servers and serviced their networks... (I was IN this Data Center when the twin towers came down in 2001... half our networks went WITH those buildings)

    ..... now I wanna live in the middle of a damn CORNFIELD or FORREST or SWAMP somewhere.... (but that's another matter)

    it's very very VERY "obvious" ... that the "owners" of this (I have to say it) ...
    the "owners" of this... PLANET...
    are building (yes) a ...HOUSE of CARDS-

    and yes, with EACH iteration of this "quantitative easing"... it's being stacked higher... and more precariously.
    it is very VERY obvious ( to me) Now... that this is a "mechanism" that is going to be USED-
    to SQUASH... "normal Life"

    when it suits them.
    and we all know how this will happen... or COULD happen.

    Right now it's just the slow encroachment / months / by / month.... of deteriorating country-focused Financials
    slowly. Bit by Bit... "they" are failing.
    But b/c it's the "American Dollar" that runs the world. America is still "top" of the pile...

    but if required, "They"... (the proverbial "They") can just hit a damn Switch...
    and Tomorrow.... it all just drops to Nuthing... because .............

    Everyone is in debt.

    (god ... the general public is so stupid)

    .... anyway.
    is anybody here very knowledgeable of BitCoin?

    I / myself, have written a couple blogs on BitCoin Basics.... and have begun buying into it.
    I might even begin "Trading" (like a real FX-trader trades...) might try learning to "trade" on the BitCoin market.

    Yeah... "The Dollar" could last another 3 years / 3 months / 3 decades....
    as LONG as "They" wish to keep it propped up.
    but it is all .......................................... FALSE ECONOMY.

    (designed to entrap everyone in it's web of debt)

    anyone a BitCoin "user"? BitCoin is ONE thing I do wish to continue learning about. ....
    and "We" (people off grid) should absolutely BEGIN going thru the motions of using it as a currency.
    But I'm okay too if anyone wants to recreate the American Continental Dollar...

    ... in FACT... NOW that I do think of it?
    Let's (maybe) be open to the possibility of a "preppers" / American Continental...
    we'll need to trade amongst ourselves (in surviving groups) and we will NEED a "currency" ... maybe??? ..... yes? ... ....................... thoughts?
    (and IF.... we DO ... have any kind of "network" left? (that we'd ddddDARE to use?)
    - me? I am very very curious about Kim-DotCom's "secured" net... that he is creating to run alongside the "official" internet... .yeah.... maybe I WILL .... try to "master" this new / hacker-tech.... AND grow Radishes.............................. and Chickens / and / Bunnies!)
    maybe I should change my ID to "Hacker-Prepper" ... LoL
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
    Gopherman likes this.
  6. Dont

    Dont Just another old gray Jarhead Monkey Site Supporter

    Just to provoke some thought, what do the masters gain by toppling the the system?
    They do not care what governmental system is in place, as long as they are able to continue to control it through dept. As we are moved closer to a cashless system, and ALL transactions occur electronically, and so are tracked, there is no hiding anything we do if it involves a monetary exchange. Except a barter system of course. Is there a down side for the masters at this point? A monetary reset of sorts? Banks would lose initially, however will recover in the long run as in the property collapse..

    Just my random thoughts.. Electronically traded Bitcoin.. How long before it is co-opted?
    JohnSteven, Ganado, Gopherman and 2 others like this.
  7. Gopherman

    Gopherman Sometimes I Wish I Could Go Back to Sleep Site Supporter++

    In have to say it out of a sense of fair play. If people could get good paying jobs we might still have a handful of free loaders, but, I like to think that a sense of self worth would prevail and people would rather work.
    Maybe I am Naive but there is always hope!
    JohnSteven and Ganado like this.
  8. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    There is no shame factor to food stamps anymore, it is the norm for a huge slice of the population.
    If I owned the store, there would be sirens going off and light up signs shouting "FREELOADER AT REGISTER #(fill in the blank)". People used to take pride in taking care of there own family.
    It would be keyed to use of an EBT card, so no one could claim preferential treatment.

    But then, I'm an equal opportunity destroyer.
    Gopherman likes this.
  9. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY

    Since America seems to be the "Police-Arm" covering The World-
    I don't think that "this" exact moment would mark the optimal time to let total financial chaos rule...
    ... I think "They" have got to institute more "martial" systems of authority first....
    (even if it's not going by that title)
    (and even IF "American's" are still going on vacations- working their "normal" lives... going to schools... etc.)
    I have the feeling we've gotta SEE (more commonly) deeper -- Constitutional -- violations as a "NORM"---
    More "outrageous" legal / moral / authoritarian drama's unfolding: Weekly / Daily...
    then maybe "They" could drop the hammer .... (and round us up as they wish... OR TRY TO)

    then after we (general TV-fixated population) are "softened up".
    Then maybe trashing the system may allow "Them" more total (physical) control of us.

    "co-opted" Electronic BitCoin...? I'm not sure it CAN be "co-Opted" (really)
    don't know enough (yet) to fully argue the technology but... I do know it is designed as an encrypted / self-maintaining registry... and (literally) should be impossible for "Banks / Financial" institutions to decrypt or control in any "centralized" fashion.

    The BitCoin block chain can be used for public record of many many types... INCLUDING your personal Bank Account...
    (and you can even "maintain it" in a NON-Electronic fashion.... yes... you heard me... it's TRUE!)
    I just won't / can't fully teach or repeat all relevant details of it (yet)... but I will...
    BitCoin wallets can exist on paper... the BlockChain has got to be maintained on a distributed network of some sort.... (and your wallet will "reference" this).

    I THINK I'll master this.... soon(?)
    I THINK I will... anyway... (hope)

    if "we" had a way of re-creating an "American Continental Dollar" (and begin to USE it...) that- may actually be a way to survive "monetarily" beyond the Current Petro-Dollar. (just as was used in Colonial Times). For a "New-Colonial Dollar" to work, all it requires is a consensus / agreement on it's value and a system of it's own that does use it and recognize it as Valued. And maybe it'd be possible for "preppers" to act just AS the original Colonies did when this country was made, and this can be replicated (by choice) among 'The People'.... (maybe)
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
  10. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY

    Gopher I too think many of "us" would rather live with a very PUBLIC sense of self-worth and direct (visible) exchange.
    In a Life of "honest work" ---

    And I think that the very simplest systems of basic "barter" would work too.
    (and maybe even a few "free loaders" may "survive" through the good will of the greater number- maybe)
  11. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Of course if can be co-oped. It relies on an internet that can be cut at any time. Without connections between computers, THERE IS NO BLOCK CHAIN. It that unbloken string that IS bitcoin, and without connections there is no bitcoin mining either, (I believe)
    I have no stake in bitcoin, nor do I trust it in the long run.
    IF , the Constitutional rules were being followed, only congress could mint currency at all. So, is it alright to mint money, because the FED does? Or is it hypocritical to create bitcoins, while decrying how the FED is not following the Constitution?
  12. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY


    "Of Course" co-opted?
    why... "of course"...???

    it is HEAVILY encrypted. the block chain (theoretically) can't be broken with ALL computers (on earth) trying to break it in the 10 minutes of a "hash" of the BitCoin network....

    re: "it depends on the internet"....

    hackers are already "creating" a NEW "internet"............. runs upon the infrastructure of today's internet....
    but is also.... Heavily Encrypted....

    You are referring to Breaking Basic communications then...
    communications CAN be "interrupted".... but not necessarily permanently.
    and certainly NOT "everywhere" on Earth.

    and that's what I'm referring to.
    the ... general "Resistance" of the population..... anywhere on Earth....
    from any direction.
    using any technology to .... Git 'er done.

    there's more of "us" ... than them.
    and more "nodes" of the BitCoin network... can be created... than can be found... quickly. It's math. AND....

    the "masters" happen to be MORE DEPENDANT on the network... than we are...

    don't forget that.

    ... it's US............. who can give THEIR BANKS... a very very bad Bad day...
    Andreas Antonopolous...
    the guy who WROTE the Book on BitCoin

    used to be a Bank programmer....

    he wanted to be on the "Right" side.
    the security of banks... credit cards... etc.... is NOT "secure".
    BitCoin actually IS.... "secure".
    THAT IS WHY "The Man"..... (banks) "hate" it....

    (besides... I am actually "thinkin'" of ways a few "remote" nodes CAN communicate without using the infrastructure of those peckerwoods .... AT ALL)

    I'm tellin' ya... it's possible this can be done. "We" just need to believe it.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
  13. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Remove the blood flow, and every organ dies.
    Without connections bitcoin is stagnant. As I understand it, bitcoins are awarded for computations under speed. First one to complete that request, gets the bitcoin.
    You think a second internet, reliant on the same wires, is any less vurnable to a cut wire? It doesn't matter at all if it is encrypted, it it can't GO ANYWHERE. Isolation kills bitcoin. It would certainly stop production, and would prevent trading, buying, selling, except in face to face meetings with mobile wallets. (That would be about the only way it could be used.)
    If communication is to be cut by intent, to isolate, and attack or punish, it would include phyisiclly breaking the wires. Shutting down satellite communication, even radio could be jammed if ordered.
    Co-oped, does not just mean being compromised. It can simply be destroyed.
  14. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY

    there will be "connections"... trust me.

    the "system" of the "masters" would have to (also) be strangled off...
    the "masters" will NOT want to leave a military / security / NSA... in charge of their own networks.

    "at speed"
    the network will exist... and so will "miners"
    it is already reaching a point where the "return" of mining for a Bit Coin is NOT..... (purely) the primary reason that the nodes exist.

    there will simply be VOLUNTEERS to maintain the Blockchain ... my friend.

    I am an EXAMPLE of that
    I do not seek.... BitCoin (as a "miner") but maintain a "node"
    there will be many of us...

    just like.... oh.... "Anonymous"...


    what ACTUALLy will be the "problem"...
    would be providing such a (secure) connection to any prepper/community.
    at least one.
    (I'm not really caring to ARGUE this all... I'm just saying...)
    it CAN.... be "done".
    it can be.
    And I do know that most network traffic is "trace-able"

    I merely am also saying... it doesn't need to be TOTALLY "gone" / destroyed

    or "strangled"
    it CAN... "be done" and right now I am trying to learn a few deeper points

    I'd like to be able to program using the blockchain... don't know if I will end up "mastering" it tho. I do believe it CAN "survive" and remain hide-able.

    if not... that's why I also suggested an alternate currency... like a Neo-Constitutional note... just like in colonial days.
    Ganado likes this.
  15. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Sorry, this is too "tin foil hat" for me.
    If I were in charge of going after any offender, it would be a complete blanket communication blackout. There would be no connections, no communications at all.
    It would not be wide spread, it would be local, and hit with over whelming force. It would be over before any news got out it had even happened.
    For every real world connection, there is a brick and motar address. You can hide out in the web, but not where your feet hit the ground.
    If there is reason enough, you will be found. For every Silk Road, there are those determined to tear it down. They may be slow but they get there in the end.
    I'm done here.
  16. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY

    "complete communication blackout...." Nah... (certainly not global)

    (probably not even continental... possibly small-regional) but a broad blackout?


    the ENTIRE POPULATION would revolt.... sans "tinfoil hats" (here is Your ... aluminum)

    Logic. Math.
    the network WILL exist.
    and you would never take the network "entirely" away.

    that's kinda ... "conspiracy-Like"

    you gotta have your Alex Jones streaming.... after all... Right?


    the only "tin foil" involved... will be the general PUBLIC's DEPENDENCE on networks.
    so it won't be removed. It can't be.
    in a small region... maybe.
    and temporarily. ...most likely.

    and the technology does exist to allow Bitcoin to continue.
    or the entire internet WOULD have to be shut down.

    here is Kim DotCom's presentation on his ENCRYPTION Tech-
    with Max Keiser...
    Max is discussing his own "Start Coin" but yes.... all of the "alt coins" will be able to run on this new distributed network.

    (go to the last half of this first video to get quickly to the internet discussion)

    Part 1

    Part 2
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
  17. Ganado

    Ganado Monkey+++

    I here you @johnstevens and agree there is a huge secondary network. Its only fatal flaw. What happens if the electricity goes out?
    Dont and JohnSteven like this.
  18. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY

    True That....

    an EMP or a massive Coronal Discharge would just ... be... a ... total ... BITCH...!
    it's why I wanna grow chickens too! ... and be basically self-dependent. (I think we should all strive to be)
    yes ... I'm even serious when I say there are "ways" that "remote nodes" of any "prepper network" COULD remain at least in a low bandwidth contact....

    but if the Electricity is "out"... (entirely)? sure...
    dead in the water and using smoke signals.

    I merely do state that if a complex (global) network exists... I highly doubt the alt-coins will "disappear"

    the greater problem is how people who are supposedly "OFF the grid" can be "ON the grid " (yet never get "caught")

    THAT's the actual problem

    Operational Security issues....
    Ganado likes this.
  19. Ganado

    Ganado Monkey+++

    Just so I'm clear about what you are saying.... the problem is how to hide in plain site and be 'on the grid' but appear 'off the grid'? If I am missing what you are saying please clarify.

    (I miss things frequently, its the guns and all that hair) ;0
    Dont, Yard Dart and JohnSteven like this.
  20. JohnSteven

    JohnSteven CHUNKY MUNKY


    yes, exactly.
    even IF.... the BitCoin network were (temporarily) stopped... it'd restart and resynch within minits.

    but stopping it entirely would take a nuclear strike of global proportions....
    kinda counter productive (if insanely vindictive... in an attempt to "stop"... BitCoin)

    yes, the "Larger" problem is the issue of security surrounding just USING your BitCoin on a network ("on" grid)
    and even of currency conversions... Dollars for BitCoin or Bitcoin to Dollars.... (or any other currency)

    without being "detected" or "found" by .... The Man...

    presupposing you WANT to be "invisible" or "off grid" ENTIRELY....

    I am thinking that this will (partly) be solved most easily by "off gridders" ... in MOST "situations" through social engineering....

    What do I mean by that?
    simply having "someone" who is willing to "Front" for you who DOES live "On Grid" (legally) and can convert your "currency" (whether dollar OR BitCoin) into an actual PURCHASE or merely giving you DOLLARS...
    (if physical dollars still exist)
    or, maybe even making an actual purchase for you (if physical dollars disappear) if all exchanges become electronic.

    but I myself don't even know of Detailed / good ways (yet) of "currency" use or conversion that will HIDE your currency / activity...

    but.... believe me. I'm thinking about it and wondering HOW I can do this....
    because I do want to be as "Low Profile" as possible.

    but probably. IF there are people living "on grid"
    most likely the USE of any currency by an "off grid" person....
    would have to be "Laundered" by a Legal Entity in existence "on grid"

    for now?
    it's still very possible to use BitCoin / Dollars and be quite "invisible" with NOBODY helping you.

    my whole statement about re-Creating ( yes "minting" ) our own "Continental Dollar"...

    the question is this....
    the FED... is NOT a constitutional entity.
    yes, only "Congress" can create money..... (in a "better" politics and economy)

    but our Government has FORSAKEN US....
    it has turned on us (we The People)

    so yes,
    if "we" more or less determined ourselves to be Self Governing...
    I believe we are JUSTIFIED to have / create our own dollar. (as a prepper community and mentality)

    is it Hypocrisy?

    all I know is.... I am MORE of a Patriot than our current President.
    I AM.............. a Natural Born American (un-Like the current President)

    so ...
    In MY opinion I have MORE (actual) authority than HE does...
    (if HE and I are in a room together) LoL

    but I am a tad egotistical .... in this perhaps... LoL

    I'd RATHER.... have the willing VOTE... .of whatever "preppers" surrounded me.
    and we just "DO" what we have to do.... to function PROPERLY

    Like Americans-
    (so yes. we'd NEED our own currency- therefore.... we "make" it.)

    MaryLand 3rd of a dollar
    Colonial Continental Currency Maryland 1776 | eBay

    Continental Notes:
    notice... on THIS web page... the entire "economy" (back then) equaled 2,000 dollars !!!
    The TOTAL of printed dollars was in summation: $2,000.000 (maybe for just one state?)
    Revolutionary War - Continental Money

    Continental Dollar (coins):
    1776 Continental Dollar - Continental Dollar - Continental Dollars - 1776 History
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
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