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Prohibiting Flag Burning Failed

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Tracy, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    On the Amendment
    Senate Roll Call No. 189
    109th Congress, 2nd Session

    Rejected: 66-34 (see complete tally)
    By 66 yeas to 34 nays (Vote No. 189), two-thirds of the senators voting, a quorum being present, not having voted in the affirmative, Senate failed to pass S.J. Res. 12, proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States authorizing Congress to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States, agreeing to the committee amendment.
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    This just jerks my chain. Proper flag etiquette is fixed already, why an amendment to further muddy the water as to what the applicable rules are in any given situation? Dissing the flag is just plain wrong, whether institutionalized by another law that will be ignored, or by simple customs and courtesy. EVERY school should have that in the civics curriculum (but I doubt they do. I got it in Cub Scouts.) This is not, in my mind, a freedom of speech issue at all as the libs seem to think. How the harry can a simple lack of courtesy and respect be raised to the level of a crime, anyway?

    A beating by the crowd surrounding the perp(s) should be sufficient, lead by the camera wielding press, with cameras turned off of course.

    How much time and ink did the Senate spend on this rubbish? Fecal material emitters, all of them.

  3. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    Hey, ya'll probably been boyscouts..

    What is the proper way to retire a flag when it gets too old and ragged and has torn edges and holes?

    If it did pass I would print in China and import flags with 14 stripes and 51 stars. Probably would make a killing.
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    There is a formal ceremony prescribed, but I've completely forgotten where to find it. Probably in one or another of the scouting manuals. However, the acceptable alternative is cutting it up and burning it privately.
  5. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    What is proper procedure to retire a flag?

    National Flag Foundation recommends the following as the proper ceremonies for retiring and destroying a worn Flag.

    Ceremony of Final Tribute This ceremony should be conducted at a private, non-public location.

    Only one Flag, representing all those to be destroyed, should be used in the ceremony.

    Two color guards should be used at evening retreat, one for the Flag currently in use and a special color guard for the Flag to be permanently retired.

    Just before sunset, the Flag that has been flying all day is retired in the normal, ceremonial procedure for the group or site.

    The color guard responsible for the Flag receiving the final tribute moves front and center. The leader should present this color guard with the Flag that has been selected for its final tribute and subsequent destruction. The leader then should instruct the color guard to "hoist the colors".

    When the Flag has been secured at the top of the pole, the leader comments:

    "This Flag has served its nation long and well. It has worn to a condition to which it should no longer be used to represent the nation. This Flag represents all of the Flags collected and being retired from service today. We honor them all as we salute one Flag."

    The leader then calls the group to attention, orders a salute, leads the entire group in the "Pledge of Allegiance" and orders the Flag retired by the color guard.

    Slowly and ceremoniously, the flag is lowered, then respectfully folded in the customary triangle. The Flag is delivered to the leader and then the group is dismissed.

    This concludes the Ceremony of Final Tribute.
    Ceremonial Burning of the Flag

    This ceremony should be conducted at a private, non-public location.

    Fire and Flag Preparation:

    The burning of a Flag should take place at a campfire in a ceremony separate from the Ceremony of Final Tribute. The fire must be sizable (preferably having burnt down to a bed of red hot coals to avoid having bits of the Flag being carried off by a roaring fire), yet be of sufficient intensity to ensure complete burning.

    Before the ceremony begins, the color guard assigned to the Flag opens up its tri-corner fold and then refolds it in a coffin-shaped rectangle.

    When all is ready:

    All assemble around the fire. The leader calls the group to attention.

    The color guard comes forward and places the Flag on the fire.

    All briskly salute.

    After the salute, but while still at attention, the leader should conduct a respectful educational program as the Flag burns: e.g. singing of "God Bless America"; offering an inspiring message of the Flag's meaning followed by the "Pledge of Allegiance"; performing a reading about the Flag; reciting the "American's Creed"; etc.

    When the Flag is consumed, those assembled, with the exception of a leader and the color guard, should be dismissed. They should be led out in single file and in silence.

    The leader and color guard should remain to ensure that the Flag is completely consumed, and to burn additional Flags, if any.

    The fire should then be safely extinguished.
  6. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well I guess on this one Im just a big lib, I figure that even though I find burning the flag for demonstration repulsive I figure that to chip away at the freedom of folks to express themselves in ways not physicly harmful to others would be far more degrading to the flag than some idiot burning it. For them to burn or desicrate it after all simply shows their disrespect for it but can not tarnish its meaning, restricting the freedoms (even those we dont like to see exercised) of the citizens it flies for however (even those we veamently disagree with) IMO would put a true stain and desicration on the flag that no idiot in the street dumping sewage on it or burning it ever could.

    I dont agree with desicrating the flag but if we destroy its meaning then I figure thats just a lot worse desicration. Just my 2 cents.
  7. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    Amen MM. Well said.
  8. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    My friend's dad was a vietnam vet and I agree with his opinion which was, "I proudly fought under the banner of that flag and the principles for which it stands -- one of which was your right to freely express yourself by burning the flag. I also watched many young friends die under that flag. You better not burn that flag infront of me or I am gonna beat the living shit out of you for disrespecting the all the other values embodied in the symbol we call the American flag"
  9. Tracy

    Tracy Insatiably Curious Moderator Founding Member

    If you're not able to hold your own ceremony (like that above), you might check with your local American Legion. Around here, they not only distribute flags, but also collect flags that have served their time for proper ceremonial destruction.
  10. Infidel

    Infidel Guest

    The question was in jest. I know that boyscouts burn the flag. So the amendment to ban flag burning would show us that the legislature does not remember being boyscouts if anything.

    I do really want to know how many legal restictions we should have regarding what we can and what we can not do with "The Symbol of Freedom."

  11. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    THey have no business tmapering with the Constitution for this. Could be a trial run to see if we'd let them make a few changes here and there.

    I also do believe that a law against burning the Flag on the FEDERAL level would indeed be another attack on our personal freedoms. Is it disgusting to me to se some burn a flag in protest? You bet. SHould it be illegal? The moment it is, we are all in danger of questioning or protesting our leaders.

    Side note:
    We NEED need to stop thinking about Republican vs Dem and Conservative Vs Lib. Those class distinctions exist and are HEAVILY promoted to keep us sheep sidetracked and disjointed. So long as we fight each other about the small shit, They have no worries that we'll catch on to the larger game.

    I'm against any law that would restrict one iota of personal liberty. Change the channel.
  12. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

  13. TailorMadeHell

    TailorMadeHell Lurking Shadow Creature

    You can burn the flag all you want, just as long as I do not see you doing it. If I see you doing it in a protest, in a disgraceful (which is other than retiring ceremony) then you will have to burn my slugger as well. The flag to me is a symbol of Freedom and the freedom that we have today was paid for in Blood. Do not think for one minute that it was bought cheaply. It was red blooded Americans that fought and won our freedom.

    My grandfather was a veteran and that symbol which people want to burn Was a symbol for him as well. You can disagree with the government and hate politicians, that is fine. Burn a friggin paper mache' doll or something. The US flag stands for the US, not for politicians that are running our country in the ground. If I didn't like you, I wouldn't go burn your mother would I? No, if it is you that I have the problem with, then it is to you I will be heading. The morons doing the burning have a problem with the government and they should take the time to right a letter.

    I believe that is what they have talk shows for. There is Oprah, Larry King, CNN, and many public speaking forums. There are blogs, there are emails, there are newspapers. Put yourself to work instead of a lazy weak display. There is nothing in the thought of "Free Speech" that protects your use of gasoline, lighter and the flag. Get a friggin life and move out. I will not stand for it in my sight. Here's a little justice that I love....

  14. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    "The argument that the 2 parties should rep opposed ideals and policies, one
    perhaps of the Right, and one of the Left, is a foolish idea. Instead, the
    two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can
    "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or
    extensive shifts in policy. It should be able to replace it every four
    years if necessary, by the other party, which will still pursue with new
    vigor, approximately the same basic policies."

    Prof Carroll Quigley, author of "Tragedy and Hope", CFR MBR, Socialist Party MBR, and confessed Establishment "Insider", memtor of Bill Clinton while at Georgetown Univ.
  15. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    I take full exception to that Carrol Quigley's approach. I've lived under what amounts to a one party system, alledgedly a democracy (actually a benign oligarchy the maintains extremely tight controls) that behaved as you describe. We do NOT want that, it is very highly liberty limiting. Dissention is discouraged (squelched) in no uncertain terms, believe it. For the record, Singapore. A lovely place to visit (with money to spend) not nearly so nice as a citizen to live under that system.
  16. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Me thinks his point is that we are under a 1 party system and the left and the right are just to distract us. Higher Powers That Be theory
  17. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    It very well may be smoke and mirrors, but it is still better than a system with one party that gives only lip service to the loyal opposition. At least here we have the choice between the lesser of two evils. In that system, it makes no difference how you think or vote, the single party holds the cards and controls the debates. Like it or not, the system here allows for dissention without coercion or jail time. Over there, if you disagree, someone will sue you for libel and slander or worse, and you are ruined financially or spend jail time or both. Either way, you are dissuaded from speaking up. Only select tame opposition folks are permitted to exist, and their sputterings make them look like the idiots they truely are. The smart ones, the thinkers, usually spend a lot of time counting their fingers or nursing the welts from canings and retire from politics to menial work.
  18. Ardent Listener

    Ardent Listener Monkey+++

    You are correct. This is a smokescreen issue for them to hide behind.
  19. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Ever wonder why Suddenly, we awoke to find that Perestroika had taken hold of the USSR and the Communists were gone?

    Power does not give up it's power. It just changes it name to a more popular one. IMHO, we never left the rule of the Crown... Just a thought as I tweek the Satellite dish and sip a Dutch Beer.
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