Questions Re: ATF position on pistol grip 'shotguns'

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Drumbo, Nov 23, 2010.


  1. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    That is EXACTLY on target -and although I like to *think* that more people than 1% would actually do the right thing, the reality of it all is quite stark. However, I do not entirely agree with some of your assertions. I am only comforted in feeling certain that it is most likely people will finally realize their true potential as they stand on the precipice of change, but by then it is all too often too late. It is in part due to the fact that we cannot accept or tolerate greatness in our midst that we do all that we can to destroy it.

    It wasn't so much the fact that Randy's beliefs or actions caused what happened on that terrible day; he was tricked and his child was murdered along with his wife -we cannot give in and claim that he was "wrong" for trusting in himself and be willing to live a life clinging to liberty...but in the end, only HE can say whether it was worth it or not, and that is because WE did nothing -absolutely NOTHING to stop it. The people did not fight along side of him, so that battle was won by the tyrant. And each day that passes, with every single murder carried out by the war machine, another chance presents itself for the people to unite and fight for liberty. How many battles will be lost before true freedom is once again established? What is the price for liberty? Is it one man's family? Well, Randy may have a differing opinion, one he is most certainly entitled to...but as far as I can see it, the fight goes on and it will continue whether or not we agree. Is the fight for liberty over because of the terrible consequences, such as was illustrated at Ruby Ridge? Should we all just give up and say that our children living in a gulag under rule of martial law is preferable to risking life and limb to secure freedom and prosperity? These are the questions to be considered, and it is no different now than it was with our nation's founding.

    Each person must decide what is right. It will be different for everyone, and nobody will have a line in the sand that will prove to be finite until he/she first draws it, plant their feet firmly and consciously admits that the tyrant will come no further.

    It is EASY to say these things, and we both agree to this. Online, it is always easier to SAY something when it is obvious that doing it will be eminently harder. I only hope and wish that every person can afford themselves the clarity of thought to consider when "enough is enough"...before we lose too many battles.

    All that is important is that we try not to carry a torch for another who does not wish it to be raised; for there is nothing worse in my mind than fighting for a cause that has no truly significant meaning. I don't think I am alone in the fight to LIVE as a free person. I don't believe I am a "citizen slave" who is property of government. I would like to achieve true liberty in my lifetime, but I also know that I cannot attain such on my own. We may be divided on issues, but we Americans should never be divided when it comes to the thought of liberty.
     
  2. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    I talked to my wife about my line and told her what it meant. There are a lot of unconstitutional laws I have quietly declared void and then quietly gone about my business, harming no one.
     
  3. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Well put B. United we stand, divided we fall. We hang together or hang seperately.

    Many of us have drawn our lines, and we go about quietly ignoring unconstitutional and freedom depriving "laws". But it is the ones who make a stand, the ones who tweak the nose of the beast that get devoured.
    Until there are enough of us to say NO, and stand by it, stand by each other, the beast will always win.
     
  4. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I think 3 percent is fairly representative.
     
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I hope your right Sea, but I would have to see it to believe it. I saw the "From my cold dead hands" crowd in the militia movement of the 90's when persecution came and leaders started getting rounded up they slunk home, burned their uniforms and hid their guns. They disappeared like an early morning fog.

    But even if it is 1% you have to do the math. There is an estimated 80-100 million gun owners in the US. If 9 out of 10 turned in their weapons that still leaves 8-10 million motivated, committed, and armed citizens.
    That's a number that would make any tyrant think twice.

    I have heard the saying that the thing that keeps liberal gun grabbers awake at night is the knowledge that there are 3 million trained, experienced snipers out there. That's the average number of deer tags issued yearly![flag]
     
  6. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    I live far enough out in the bush, that most of the Big Government folks, couldn't get here, if they started walking last year. That said, I did actually get inspected by ATF, ONCE in 20+ years of business, as an FFL. Up here, Folks and Firearms, are like bread & water, you can't have one without the other, for very long. In fact Alaska has a Statute on the Law Books, that a Felon can posses a firearm, AFTER he has completed ALL his probation, AND has had no further Police Issues for 5 years. We are still subject to the Federal Law, but the Feds rarely enforce their Possession Statute, without some other issue, bringing it to their attention. Alaska feels that this is Good Law, to allow reformed folks the ability to Subsistence Hunt, once they have proved their reformation. Should the day ever come that some Big Shot Fed, actually comes this far out, to take my weapons, unless they bring a Company of Men, they will be looking at a small group of very good defenders, armed to the teeth, and not in any mode to play their game, as none of my close (close = 10 Sq Miles) neighbors will be turning in any of there weapons. It would be nice to pick up their heliocopter, afterwards though....
     
  7. Well, in the interest of continuing the 'Gratuitous Short Barrelled Shotgun Porn', I present the Tromix S17 -
    [​IMG]

    And I have a Knoxx CopStock on my 870 - it does a better than decent job of recoil reduction. Brokor - the recoil reducing mechanism works with the stock folded as well, saving your wrist.
     
  8. kckndrgn

    kckndrgn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I have the Knoxx SpecOps (SpecOps Adjustable Shotgun Stock - BLACKHAWK! ) (Knoxx was bought out by Blackhawk I think?) on my Mossberg 590A1, and YES it does reduce the felt recoil. If the COPStock works just as well as the SpecOPS I will prolly put it on an old Winchester Defender that currently only has a pistol Grip
     
  9. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Back on topic chum (or "bud" if you prefer.) This post has nothing to do with the OP.
     
  10. azurevirus

    azurevirus Monkey++

    mmmm..I was thinking about getting a pistol grip mossberg as I heard from a guy that it was the only gun he could legally carry in his camper ..I dont know, I didnt ck on it...so I dont know if its true or what..I know I was thinking about buying the 590A1 14" bbl as I think it would be an awesome defense weapon with a major cool factor thrown in..I actually think I saw one in a sci fi movie..the foregrip was camo tho..anyway I will have to do some checking as I want a weapon with me in my camper
     
  11. Blackhawk did indeed buy Knoxx. And the COPStock (no longer produced - but I found one new on eBay) is rated for somewhat less recoil reduction than the SpecOPS stock - but the COPStock is more compact, which is why I went that way, as my 870 is primarily a home defense gun, and overall length is more important to me for maneuverability inside the house.
     
  12. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer


    Isn't the CopStock and the below link practically the same stock?

    SpecOps Folder Shotgun Stock - BLACKHAWK!
     
  13. No, it's not - from my viewpoint, at least. Although both fold similarly and have a very similar wire frame stock, the COPStock is more compact and uses a different recoil reducing mechanism than the SPECOPS stock. The SPECOPS is more efficient at reducing recoil - but is longer.

    In short, the SPECOPS allows the receiver to slide along a track, while the COPStock uses torsional springs to directly oppose the recoil of the firearm.
     
  14. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer


    Ahhhh. Ok, thanks. One of the SpecOps Wire folding is on my list still.
     
  15. rle737ng

    rle737ng Monkey+++

    The Blackhawk Speccops recoil reducing stock is a great addition to my Remington 870. It reduces recoil and is adjustable to my shorter than average frame.
     
  16. spero

    spero Monkey+

    [ditto]i could not agree more. I do not mind some basic gun laws but some go to far (i.e. the NFA)[beer]
     
  17. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    There wouldn't be an NFA, IF the Self-Appointed Good Deed Doers of the Day, hadn't voted in Probation. Who ever heard of a Gang needing Machine Guns to protect a House of Prostitution, or a Numbers Racket. It was because of the Liqueur Running in Chicago, New York, and Washington State, that the NFA was passed... that and Bonnie and Clyde Barrow, Dillinger, and Babyface Nelson robbing Banks, in the south and midwest...

    This has always been a PetPeeve of mine... Unintended Consequences of self-Appointed Good Deed Doers, getting Laws passed on Human Morality Issues.....
     
  18. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    Not sure if it was the barrels or the stock I have heard it both ways.

    A federal grand jury found Weaver innocent of sawing off shotguns (the original charge), killing Degan, and everything except (not) showing up for the weapons charge. Kevin Harris left the court room a free man. The criminal justice system had worked -- except for those who killed Sammy, Vicki and Degan.

    Found this in the case :

    [FONT=&quot]Senator THOMPSON. And that crime was to saw off the barrel of a shotgun?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Mr. WEAVER. Yes, sir.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Senator THOMPSON. Let me ask you parenthetically, in your mind, why did it not occur to you that these people you were selling these guns to could have sawed those barrels off just as easily as you could have?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Mr. WEAVER. Well, this Gus Magisano was not the type mechanically. Now, sawing the barrel off is easy but if you wanted, he wanted pistol grips and I would challenge a lot of people in this room to make a nice decent pistol grip out of a good butt of a shot*gun and not wreck it and ruin the whole thing.[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]Senator LEAHY. You spoke of the man who asked you to alter the shotguns, to shorten the barrel and fix them with a pistol grip. You said after 3 years you needed money so you went ahead: $700 for 2 shotguns that you had about $250 invested in. Did you offer to sell him any guns beyond that?
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Mr. WEAVER. No, sir.[/FONT]



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