Reactionary or Visionary?

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by RightHand, Jun 19, 2010.

  1. RightHand

    RightHand Been There, Done That RIP 4/15/21 Moderator Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I write a newsletter that is widely distributed to the public by one of my clients. Although the company is a plumbing, electical, hvac, remodeling business, my main intent with the newsletter is to keep our name in front of the eyes of potential customers. As such, I don't try to "sell" anything but rather enlighten and entertain. It's become pretty popular but as anyone who writes a column or newsletter knows, it is a constant struggle to come up with topics of general interest.

    I admit that this post hasn't started out as something that belongs in the Freedom and Liberty forum but it seems the best place to get some feedback on one of my July topics: Did our founding fathers anticipate that the document they crafted would remain intact 234 years later? What is the real genius of the Declaration of Independence and subsequent Constitution and Bill of Rights. Were these documents reactionary or visionary or merely a codification of their dream?
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    A quick kick to start off.
    1) They surely knew that changes would be necessary, that's why there is a procedure included to make changes. The genius part was the requirement for more than a simple majority to make the changes. Yep, slows things down, but prevents headlong cliff dives.
    2) I really do not think those guys were any smarter than we have today. What they were was honorable.
  3. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    It was a visionary reaction to the King. I believe they would be surprised that 234 years later we have ventured away from the document even though we say it is still "intact". Parts have simply been over looked and I can't really figure that one out. The "gold/silver" portion of the document has been conveniently forgotten, for one.
  4. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I was in D.C. a while back and went to the Library of Congress for the expressed purpose of reading the original document and I cannot begin to describe the sense of profound gratitude I felt towards those that had carefully and wisely crafted the words that have bannered our Great Nation for more than two centuries. I left with a resolve to defend that principal with my life and fortune. God has graced our Republic and now it is time for man to defend it.
  5. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    This is from a great book, "Hologram of Liberty" by Kenneth W. Royce. He talks at length about the Necessary and Proper clause and how it is wide open and 'legalizes' any .gov action that is not in the original framework. Great book and your post caused me to dust it off again this morning for some refresher on our Constitution today.

    Royce suggest that we substitute the word Fathers with Politicians when we romantically refer to the Founding Fathers of this country.


    Civic Belief #1: The Congress was given few specific powers. All else was left to the States and to the people under the 10th Amendment. Ample checks and balances protect the Republic from federal tyranny.

    Civic Belief #2: The Federal Government has become so powerful only because despotic officials have overstepped their strict, constitutional bounds.

    If #1 is true, then how did #2 happen?

    "The Constitution has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it".
    -Lysander Spooner, No Treason (1870)

    Think about that. By either the Constitution's purposeful design or by its unintentional weakness, we suffer under a federal colossus which takes a third of our lives and regulates everything from alfalfa to xylophones. This is Freedom?
    So, why aren't Americans free? Perhaps we weren't really meant to be!

    hol· o· gram (häl' e gram) n. [< Gr. holos, whole + gramma, writing]
    2. a document falsely representing itself as an accurate metaphor

    lib· er· ty (lib'er tee) n. [< L. liber, free] 1. freedom from slavery

    Hologram of Liberty –The Constitution's Shocking Alliance With Big Government – is a cold splash of water on our civic mythology. Hologram's main contention is that the 1787 Convention, its Constitution and Federal Government was the most brilliant and subtle coup d'etat in political history. While the majority of Americans then were Jeffersonian in nature, a few Hamiltonian Federalists eradicated our Swiss-style Confederation and replaced it with a latent leviathan. The Federal Government was given several escape keys to the putative handcuffing by the Constitution. Using the "necessary and proper" and "general welfare" clauses in conjunction with congressional powers under treaty, interstate commerce, and emergency, the "Founding Lawyers" of 1787 purposely designed a constitutional infrastructure guaranteed to facilitate a future federal colossus. While such a massive government was impossible to erect in the freedom-conscious 1780's, the "virus" of tyranny was cunningly hidden within the Constitution to foment the eventual federal behemoth we are burdened with today. The feds take in a third of economic activity and regulate everything from the price of corn to the size of chimneys and it's all constitutional!" Oh, it's only 'constitutional' because autocratic Supreme Court Justices say it is!," some would reply.

    Yes, but the Framers allowed the Supreme Court, without any check or balance, to approve of federal encroachment on the States and on the people. There is no constitutional avenue for overturning a despotic Supreme Court ruling – and it was designed that way. The feds are allowed to "monitor" themselves, like students grading their own tests. Had the Framers wanted to really check the Supreme Court, they'd have at least created an appellate court (activated by petition) staffed by justices from the States. Had the Framers wanted to really hamstring Congress and the President, they would have given the people a "no-confidence" device to remove traitorous officials in midterm. Had they wanted to, the Framers could have (as did the Swiss) easily confined the Federal Government – but they didn't want to. In their opinion, a strong central government – independent of real popular approval – was best for America. The Framers left the federal fleas in control of their own flea powder, and that's why we have such an unchallengeable government today.

    Most conservatives and libertarians believe that the Constitution and its Framers were Jeffersonian and laissez-faire. They were not, and they never claimed to be. This Jeffersonian gloss is echoic of two things: 1) What the Constitution was sold as to the people through The Federalist, and 2) How the Constitution, according to Jefferson, should have been interpreted under strict constructionism. Add the Red, White, and Blue, July 4th, the Founding Fathers and George Washington and you've got a civic religion with its unique parchment worship. There are but three ways to view anything, including the Constitution:

    The way you see it.
    The way you would like it to be.
    The way it really is.

    Friends of freedom have gazed dreamily at the Constitution for two centuries, fusing #1 with #2 to create a false #3. We need to snap out of our parchment worship and coldly study the predicament of Liberty--before it's too late. Liberty-loving folks need to quickly understand that freedom is not well-served by the current Constitution. Neither is tyranny. It is Royce's firm opinion that the Constitution will be radically amended, if not abolished altogether, by "us" or "them" within 10 years. Royce proves that the States and the people were politically "checkmated" at ratification, and discusses his three peaceful solutions prior the imminent insurrection now brewing. The goal of Hologram of Liberty is to spark an active synthesis of Libertarians, Patriots, and Conservatives to prevent a 21st century Dark Age in America.

    There hasn't been an innovative theory about the Constitution in 84 years, since Charles Beard's An Economic Interpretation. We are long overdue for a paradigm shift to political reality. It's time to complete the story with Hologram of Liberty, the Jeffersonian/anti-federalist epilogue. Our window of opportunity for reestablishing freedom is quickly running out and we simply don't have time for comforting old fantasies. Hologram of Liberty is the freshest research on the Constitution since 1913.
    NotSoSneaky and Brokor like this.
  6. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    That is an excellent post, Melbo.

    Under current colorable "law", the Constitution does not exist but in jargon, to continue the illusion of liberty while perpetually increasing the power of the corporate-political dynasties at the hands of European private banking interests, who profit from creating war and cementing their foothold in globalization.

    Every banking institution of the United States has been privately owned; the only exceptions being the colonies and their scrip and Lincoln's greenbacks. Control the money and the power of usury and it matters not who makes the laws of a nation. This nation is a fascist empire, and will serve as the bearer of world order which will bring about an age of complete control by the few over the multitudes.

    It all comes down to the money -it always has.
    melbo likes this.
  7. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Oneof the most thought provoking posts I've read yet.I am very guilty of romaticizing the constitution exactly as shown above.And always had that awkward disconnect explaining: "How then this current govt. is possible?" Though I think the idea of playing "fast and loose" with the constitution and opening it up to rewriting is extraordinarily dangerous to our civil liberties.

    Though: "the "virus" of tyranny was cunningly hidden within the Constitution to foment the eventual federal behemoth" Is farther than I am willing to entertain.(yet)

    More likelyto me; (still "romanticizing") "it" ( the current federal leviathan) is the end result of 200 years hard wear in the crucible of history; Our history has worn off the finery and small errors in the constitution compounded by human weakness are becoming prominent.
    Good thread!

  8. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

    okay fine.... so how do we freakin fix it?
    expound on his 3 peaceful solutions please!
    or do we just slit our wrists and ease into a not too hot tub, and slip away?
  9. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    There is no pact between lions and men.

    Peaceful solution? Not possible.
  10. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Face it as Monkey Tommy Jefferson argued in another thread.. we are howling at the moon for all the good it does to rant to the folks worried about what the 2011 chevy silverado with the 7 year loan is gonna' look like cruising by their "friends."
  11. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn RIP 1/13/21

  12. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I have no idea what you just typed, but I agree [booze]

    Yeah, man...some people just don't get it. They believe that the US Constitution is infallible and the will of the People is united and to be reckoned with. The dirty truth of it all is that the power of our three-branched government has been aggregated into the hands of the few mega-corporations and banking elite -and no amount of protest and grievance will make it all disappear. When we look back at the history of the Freemasons and their illumined 1776 program start, questions of conspiracy begin to surface. We can look further and find how many of our presidents were members and the succession which leads us to our current day world order for the ages. The initial progress and ratification of our founding documents were hotly debated -only a fool would assume that there was zero European influence in the matter. All of the banks were started with government funds, issued to private interests exclusively, and the loans for such an endeavor were never paid off. The fractional reserve trickery and usury schemes ushered into our land a secret terror hidden deep within the recesses of our private, collective corporate enterprise government. There is indeed a "Matrix" style perspective to the world which very few can actually come to terms with; it reveals horrors and nightmares that would strip even the most courageous bare, and will leave the unprepared and uninitiated trembling and broken -stricken with fear. For, the stark truth of the matter is this: everything is a lie and the "American Dream" is just that and nothing more. Now, knowing that we are all starting off at "ground zero" without so much as a pot to piss in, where to next? It is comforting to think that we are fighting for "freedom" when we resist change that comes in the form of tyranny. It is also comforting to believe that we defend "liberty" with every sound and resolute NO! -but, these are only perceptions of a convoluted world.

    And so many brave, proud, and honest Americans continue to fight and claw and profess that their cause is righteous and just. It breaks my heart. I have never known a greater tragedy in my whole life...the tragedy of this illusory America.
  13. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Sorry Brokor a metaphor too far? Guess I was trying to just say: "Joe tv watching 6-pack"in a new way....Doesn't know (or care to know) any of this stuff: I.e.Its a football game red and blue jerseys; rah rah: our team is good and "theirs" is "bad". (i.e."simple") That's the only way they want it.

    Kudos That (post above)was "meatier" than anything I could ever come up with...

    So what CAN we do to restore/achieve "liberty"???
  14. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I wish that I had an easy solution. Did you ever play a chess game against a grand master? If not, can you at least imagine your situation? Ours is similar, but it is not the same. The single difference that I can recognize immediately, is the power of numbers we have as a strength. Unfortunately, until the people can be united -TRULY UNITED in common cause, this ace card cannot be utilized. Even so, this is our inherent strength, and if there is to be any hope at all, then we must remember Churchill's warning and prepare to defeat this tyrannous army with the pistol on every doorstep. Now, I am not calling for violence just yet, but I am sounding the alarm. We can continue to raise awareness and try to get as many people involved as possible, and we can protest peaceably with clear conscience. I have stated before, and I will do so again -no dictator, no tyrant known to myself in the history of our world has ever abdicated from always had a violent ending.

    There is no easy solution. We passed that point after Andrew Jackson laid out the groundwork for a renewed country and we lost it due to indifference and ignorance. We face an uphill battle, and there is no way of looking at this logically without taking into account what I have already mentioned. But, where exactly does this leave us? If the American People were ever to revolt, what could be the perceived outcome? I can tell you right now what you already may know; the advent of modern day terrorism™ has effectively neutralized any resistance because a "Patriot" will quite easily be defined as a Jihadist. It is a bold statement, but true nonetheless. Wherever we find large assemblies of protest, we will find men in black and police dogs -the Gestapo of justice. Our very own nation has been divided (Balkanized), and every move we intend to make on this grand chessboard has already been thought out and perceived by the opponent. But, with all of this, there is still hope. There is always hope.

    The Tyrants want you to feel like you are alone and beaten. The Tyrants believe that the masses serve them and that there is nothing they can do to alter the course which has been set. They poison the food supply, remove nutrients from the staples of foods just so you will not be willing to fight -fluoridating the water supply in perfect Nazi habit. Cancer, diabetes, obesity, lowered immune systems, fertility, medicating the children and vaccinating the all plays a vital role in keeping the people broken and battered. We have gradually and incrementally become "dumbed-down", a federalized education is no education at all. We have become indoctrinated into this disposable lifestyle, corporations profit from selling us useless junk that we don't need. We have become spoiled and pampered, a house and a lawn and two cars with a grocery store down the street for every person and electricity to rely upon for everything we are accustomed to. If we ever hope to break free, if we intend to stand on our own and resist -we must first be willing to adopt new philosophies at our core.

    The People have relied upon the technological advancement of television and the internet to receive their daily dose of "reality". Gone are the days of researching the libraries, gone are the times of social interaction and building strong relationships and communities. We now place our trust in full HD quality and televangelist fervor to replace the enormous void in our souls. For 5 dollars, you too can become a hero...just donate to the Haitian relief fund and feel better about your pathetic existence. There is no easy solution anymore because WE are broken from the start.

    The more we tend to break away from the "reality" of our current nature, the greater our chance to destroy the facade which has been pulled down over our eyes. We feel it inside, clawing at our mind, screaming desperately that something is terribly wrong...

    this can only end very badly.
  15. Byte

    Byte Monkey+++

    Excellent summation, Brokor. Boiled right down to the meat and potatoes sans the parsley garnish.

  16. RightHand

    RightHand Been There, Done That RIP 4/15/21 Moderator Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Thanks all for the interesting discussion.

    In "American Sphinx." author Joseph P. Ellis writes "[It] is the beginning of all genuine wisdom to recognize that neither Jefferson nor any other of the participants foresaw the historical significance of what they were doing at the time. What's more, within the context of the Philadelphia in the summer of 1776, the writing of the Declaration of Independence did not seem nearly so important as other priorities, including the constitution-making of the states and the prospect of foreign alliances with France or Spain. The golden haze around the Declaration had not yet formed. The sense of history we bring to the subject did not exist for those making it."

    After the reading I have been doing, I have come to believe those who conclude that the Declaration of Independence was the result the efforts of the Crown to thwart the States efforts establish independent treaties and trade with foreign nations. What was at stake was the goal of the colonies/colonists to increase their wealth. In the ensuing 11 years it took to present the Constitution, it seems (to me, at least) that the fervor over freedom grew to exceed the intent of the Continental Congress when the Declaration was originally presented.

    While I may not agree with everything Broker posits, his statement that it all comes down to money rings true in this case.

    I admit that my true understanding of the politics that surround the founding of our country is woefully short but I am beginning to agree that, in general, we somewhat romanticize the Declaration of Independence. I think that it was a reactionary document but it became the springboard for the visionary Constitution.

    It we substitute "the federal government" for "the Crown (George III)," the Declaration of Independence could be written today.

    I foresee many hours of reading in my near future. Why is it that some of us come to the quest for understanding so late in life.
  17. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Sometimes a cigar is just a smoke.
    BTPost likes this.
  18. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    It's time for church. :D
    Seacowboys likes this.
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