Read the Fine Print

Discussion in 'Back to Basics' started by duane, Feb 19, 2021.


  1. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    I am posting this in the basics for one reason, if you lose everything you own and still owe money due to some fine print in a legal contract, you have no basics to get back. God willing others will add some additional warnings to this thread and it will become a useful resource.

    This particular posting ties my experiences in the power market in New Hampshire with what is going on in Texas. I chose an electric power rate determined by the state regulators for the traditional supplier, my electric utility. That rate is set about every 6 months to a year by a state regulatory unit and is in force until the next rate is set. I was offered the option and repeatedly bombarded by ads, phone callers, etc, to get on the band wagon and sign up for cheap power supplied by the "XYZ' company that buys power on the open market and resells it to you. For the last several years it has ranged from about 5 % cheaper to a couple of times up to 20 % cheaper. After reading the fine print, I decided to stay with the safety a fixed rate plan and a known rate. Some individuals in Texas with a variable rate, no idea how many, have seen their bills go from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars for the month "and wait for it" and they have signed contracts that say they are responsible for whatever the charges are and if they don't, their power will be shut off and a lien placed on their house, etc. One such comment was on ZeroHedge, but now of course the sheep all want to be out of the contract and of course do not want to pay the bills that they selected and owe. Going to be interesting how the MSM twists that story

    Outages Morph Into Outrage As Texans Slapped With "Mind-Blowing" Power Bills | ZeroHedge

    A second one that has been played out here is the Reverse Mortgage scheme. Sounds real good on paper and while you are listening to the pitch, but most of the people I know have had less luck. It is basically a loan against the value of the equity you have in your house. They "pay" you so much a month, put that as a debt against your house and you get to live in your house and get money as well, what could go wrong? Well the next month you get the next check, everything seems fine, but when they figure out that new debt, it includes some sort of a handling fee as well as the interest for the amount of money you received the previous month. You also owe for the cost of setting up the new mortgage and the government insurance on the mortgage. You still have to pay taxes, insurance, keep the house up, and if major repairs, septic system, new roof, etc, you are responsible for those expenses as well. Good friend and her husband took out one about 5 years ago, after he passed away, family bought it out, was very obvious that the house they had helped their parents buy and fix up would belong to the bank in another 5 years. Became a very very expensive bridge loan for them. If you die, move, etc, the mortgage is due and the heirs either come up with the money to pay it off or it is sold. So far the lenders have used the open ended nature of the federal mortgage guarantees to take all the of the risks and they take all the rewards. That could change in the next downturn.

    The Reverse Mortgage: Pros and Cons

    Real Estate company want to talk to you about evaluating your house and getting some idea of the market value of the place and how much you would have left after it was sold. Just need you to sign a paper that will allow them to access the amount owed etc. The problem that occurs is that you may in fact be signing a listing agreement with the real estate company and while they do and say nothing at the time other then try to talk you into selling your house, that contract may well require you to pay them a fee, often a percentage of the sale price, even if they don't sell your house. While most honest contracts are for a limited time, by definition the individual who is trying to make as much as he can, will make the contract that you didn't understand in the first place, valid for as long as he can. I have seen people forced to pay a commission on a house that they sold to their son and who never knew that they had listed it with a real estate agency.

    https://www.homelight.com/blog/listing-agreement/

    Contracts with construction, repair, etc people for repairs, upgrades etc. While you are often warned about the dangers of the fly by night roofers, the real danger for the average homeowner is the legal company that talks you into a very expensive roof, a new kitchen, a nice new out building or barn, new efficient windows and such. They comes in do the work, it meets the specifications, you have signed the deal where you pay no interest for a year, he sold the note, got his money, and moved on to the next "sucker-customer". Windows and doors are going great guns here in New England at this time as well as metal roofing. A year later you get a notice in the mail that a lien of X thousand dollars, in range of $5,000 for doors and windows, and up it goes. You find out that it is a X year loan at a fairly high interest rate, you already owe the interest and the principle has been increased by the amount of the unpaid interest, and that the loan company and the courts could care less about the contractor or his statements, you owe the loan company not the contractor. One company advertising heavily here has the following BBB log at the moment. The gypsy driveway sealing guy will cheat you out of a couple hundred bucks and seal it with used motor oil, a professional company will get 5 to 20 thousand and slap a lien on your property if you sign the contract.

    Window Nation, LLC | Complaints | Better Business Bureau® Profile

    Buy a tractor, used car,,etc with as is clause in bill of sale. Some states have a lemon law that gives 3 or so days to get your money back, but if you buy a tractor and find out it needs $5,000 worth of transmission work in three weeks, it is usually your problem. Sign a contract to buy a $50,000 pickup for whatever reason and 2 weeks later find out it is something that you can't afford, you can't afford the gas it burns, etc. You own it, the car dealer sold the loan before you were out of the building and its between you and the loan company and they aren't in the business of making people happy. Same thing goes as far as buying anything, car, house, widows, tractor, etc, read the contract, it protects the seller, not you. If you change your mind after a short period, often 3 days, it is likely that you will either be forced to buy it and pay or at least pay something to get out of the deal.

    Buy a piece of land. May or may not own mineral, water, petro, under land and the owners may have right to access your land to get to their "assets". State may or may not let you collect rain water from roofs, tell you how many animals and what breeds they can be, State , local, or homeowners laws can tell you what kind of wells and septic systems you can have, if you need outside power, some groups can limit size and locations of fences, gardens, solar panels, Laws set size of dwelling unit, insulation used, R factor of insulation in walls, floor and ceiling, types of windows and doors and sizes. Reading past blogs on Monkey, probably close to 1/2 of land deals fall thru due to limitations that prevent prepping. In New Hampshire we have learned that if it is on the books as a law and ignored by the local area, all it takes is a single election to not only enforce the rules on the books, but apply them to past construction when you need to upgrade or expand the old units.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  2. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    If it seems to good to be true then it probably is.
     
  3. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    We got that mineral rights thing down pat here.
    As long as the well is producing the original owner at the time of drilling and production maintains mineral rights until...
    The well ceases production and on the 366th day of no production the mineral rights go to the present day owner.
    If you buy land and the seller reserves mineral rights,Guess what,After 7 years they become you 'res regardless, Sooner or later they will become the owners rights.
     
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  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Very highly variable, different states have different rules when it comes to well leasing agreements. Moreover, the landowner usually can negotiate some conditions on the lease. (I sure as hell did NOT sign the first lease offering. One landman still has hobnail prints on his, ah. "rump" and fender of his car.) Rights reversions in particular can survive quite a while, there is no legal requirement for reversion or other disposition of land owner's rights without lease provisions. That has resulted, as you can well imagine some interesting court activities when a land owner who negotiated rights dies and a multitude of heirs get to hacking and whacking at the land rights. Even more interesting when an old well is revived.
     
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  5. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Oh yeah,Never ever take the first offer,Thats the first rule of negotiation !!!
    Tell em' to come back when they decide to get real, Then tell them they going to have to do better.
    Then tell em you'll think about it, They usually call a few days later, Tell them to throw out the best offer and this time get it right.
    It's a poker game, Don't be the first one to blink.
     
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  6. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    We do need to take Duane's post to heart. Sanctioned rip offs abound, traps for the unwary and scared. All those things he mentions are freely available and easily understood IF THE FINE PRINT IS READ, UNDERSTOOD, AND AGREEABLE. Don't get yourself into a jam in the first place, but if you do, DO NOT PANIC. If there is any doubt or lack of understanding, there are any number of pro bono operations that can help.

    And remember clearly, if it ain't written it doesn't exist. Even your mother's word counts for naught when contracts or other legal documents are part of life.
     
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  7. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    Phone solicitation offers and mailings from home warranty companies that arrive after you've bought a new home have been something that we were absolutely inundated with for the first year in the new house. I read the fine print and did the homework on several of these companies. They were totally legit, but what they offered was so expensive that you'd be thousands of dollars ahead, and therefore self-insured, if you just set up a good investment plan with the money.

    I don't know if the small print applies on this one, but the same barrage of letters from local law offices wanting to represent me arrived after I got a speeding ticket. It could've been worse, since it was in the land-speed car. With the short street gears it'd top 112 MPH in third and pull hard all the way to the redline in fourth. Trooper clocked me at 71 in a 55 in the couple of seconds it took to pass a slower car. After handling that ticket I see these letters as a sure indication that you can get things resolved yourself with a visit to the magistrate and payment of a very much reduced fine. Or, you can take one of the lawyers offers and they'll do the same thing, and then charge you for doing it.

    I remember telling the magistrate that I'd been driving in the United States for years and had never gotten a speeding ticket. She didn't think it was even a little odd that I put it that way, and went right into the "I think we can help you out with that" routine. I didn't have to explain why I'd been on international legal hold in Japan, or how very polite the Japanese police were. They even offered me tea when they invited me into their nice bus and presented me with a beautiful ticket, complete with lots of intricate stamps and such. Cost me more than a months rent to settle that one. Best part of all was that in those days I was the Commanding General's driver.
     
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  8. Tempstar

    Tempstar Monkey+++

    Dad bought the walk-in tub. After his death we found out he owed $10,000 and change on a $3,000 tub. After many heated discussions and a trip to the lawyer, we basically told them to come get it if they wanted it. The house had changed ownership before they could slap a lien on it. His payments were only the interest, and the fees, insurance, "loan servicing fee" (what the hell is this?") and everything else amounted to 10 grand. Paying only the 21% interest, he would have never gotten it paid off. They have failed to remove the tub in the 90 days allowed so screw these crooks. There is a special place in hell for those that prey on children and the elderly.
     
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  9. TnAndy

    TnAndy Senior Member Founding Member

    Wife and I re-did our master bath this past fall after building the first one along with the rest of the house in 1984. Added a skylight, curb-less shower, and a walk-tub. Like everything else around here, it was self done......which lowers the odds of dealing with contracts. Also avoided car and home warranties and many insurances over the years, figuring they were most likely a far better deal for the seller than me.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  10. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    Read the entire item description carefully when purchasing online. It's called click bait for a reason.

    I shop around a good deal for bargains. Some items I can spot easily while zipping through lots of ads. In the seconds it took to hit the buy-it-now button I never noticed that anything was missing in the nice pictures of this brand new item, displayed unboxed, but still in the factory wrap. It was such a great deal I didn't even read the description until after it had shipped. It still ended up being a slightly better deal than the others offered, but I had to hunt down two missing parts that were clearly described as "MISSING" in the description of the item.

    I have yet to be burned by a seller who offers a really sweet price on an item, but asks an outrageous shipping cost. E-bay allows this to compensate the seller for their time and travel... but when the shipping is more than the sale price on an item that can ship in a padded envelope, something is up.
     
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  11. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    • Lots of NH old men have more than an adequate number of guns, "grin" and there is a legal way to buy those guns, often for pennies on the dollar. Less than honest gun dealers, with all the proper paperwork, show up and offer the "woke" kids or widow a token amount of money to get rid of all those old guns and ammo that he had that was never registered etc. Strongly implying that the government will take them and that they will be in trouble for having them and get nothing for the illegal guns. Of course they hint that what they are doing is at best semi legal and that the people selling the guns should say nothing about the sale or they may be in legal trouble. End result is that they have legal title to the collection and can sell it for what ever it will bring.
    Know of a widow 25 years ago that sold a skidder and working sawmill with a
    diesel power unit as well as all the spare blades, chains, skidder cables, chain
    saws, etc as scrap iron. Gave her so much a ton and bragged afterward that he had made close to $50,000 on the deal. She and her husband had been living apart for years and she had no idea of what it was worth and thought that the couple thousand was both found money and that she wouldn't have to clean the place out before selling it. If you are an elderly person, it is a good idea to set down with spouse, kids, etc, and value what you have and who gets it. Friend who died a few years ago had a pre civil war Colt revolving shotgun that had been in the family since new. After he died, I asked his widow about and she didn't know who had that old relic in her words. I just hope one of the kids got it and keeps it in the family. Our family had a wooden movement grandfather clock made in the early 1800's that was "awarded" to the wife in the divorce settlement and of course promptly sold. Fine print in my mind includes those scams that try to get things of value for a little of nothing from those who do not know the true value
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  12. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    @TnAndy
    I have three skylights of the type your noggin is poked thru. You might think about putting a clear sheet of rigid plastic at ceiling height. It'll add some insulating effect and cut drafts on where you might be sitting as well as condensation control. Done right, with a ledge around the bottom, you can put the plastic sheet on the ledge using a bit of weather stripping to rest the plastic on, making it removable for whatever needs done in the skylight trunk.
     
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  13. TnAndy

    TnAndy Senior Member Founding Member

    Widow in our valley sold her timber off 100ac for $3,000. I couldn't believe it. First log truck that came out has $3,000 in veneer grade ash.....followed by a couple hundred more truck loads. Out and Out robbery in my opinion.
     
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  14. hot diggity

    hot diggity Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++

    There's another kind of fine print that I've done well by reading. All that extra stuff that's printed on your receipt at the grocery store, restaurant, even sporting goods stores. Some is worth reading, and with a small time investment you could get free food, drinks, groceries or win big on a store contest. I've won a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff, and save every week on things that I'd buy anyway.

    One of my favorite things is to save all my Dollar General receipts with "Save $5 with $25 purchase" coupons. When I go in to make my weekly cat food run I hand out the extra coupons to families with a cart full of kids clothes or food that's clearly over $25. It's a little blessing that I can pass along to strangers.
     
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