Rifle for Women that aren't used to rifles...

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by melbo, Sep 8, 2005.


  1. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    phishi and I were talking about NOLA and the current situation that may have shattered quite a few's opinion and beliefs about things they took for granted.

    The idea of a non-gun Female thinking that she can pick up the phone and dial 911 if a bad guy shows up on the front porch... This idea has been proven to be not the case in the current NO sit.

    There were no phones and no Cops to respond to a problem. I think a lot of folks are thinking that they may need to take thier security into thier hand in times like this. That's good! People have been wooed into this idea that Big Bro will always be there to come to the rescue. We have forgotten the primal and necessary drive for self preservation. Wait in a hot atic for the Feds to come Rescue you, only to then throw you to the Wolf Den of a Refugee site?

    Anyway, what is a good firearm for a new shooter, (Female) to learn to use and have on hand?

    We talked of an AR15, Carbon model and a 20 gauge Shotgun...

    Other thought would be great as I think we may have some femal viewers with Eyes wide open in the weeks to come.
     
  2. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If its going to be one gun they will buy to learn and for defence and such I would say you got it right with the 20ga. If they want to try something out to learn on first a .22 is always a good learning gun for anyone but to underpowered for effective defence. An AR15 or other rifle in .223 is decent as it will work for defence and such with low recoil but it dose requile enouph skill to hit precisely and over penetration/passthrough has to be considered. A .380 for a hand gun would be decent as it has light recoil, and while at the bottom end is acceptable for defence.
    I would have to say though that for an only gun for anyone I say shotgun hands down, and the 20 guage is a good one especialy for beginers and wemon (though its also my favorit guage and Im 30 and 290 lbs and have been shooting since I was about 3 years old). A shotgun is more firgiveing of poor marksmanship than a rifle or handgun and has more put down power. Also you dont have to worry (except MAYBE with slugs) about pass through or over penetration and can get loads apropriate for nearly any need.
    I would say the absolute best gun for a woman (and up there for any man or otherwise) who wanted to get a gun for protection of thier home and/or emergencies would be a short barreled 20 guage pump in Mod choke. The Charlse Daley field hunter youth modle is what I own and has screw in choke tubes, holds up to 6 in the tube and 1 in the chamber and is an excelent gun that costs just under $200 new anyday of the week at Walmart. I have to say if anything happened and I lost all my guns it is the first one I would replace and if a friend with little or no firearms experience, female or otherwise, came to me and said they wanted to get a gun for home defence and emergencies this is the gun I would recomend.
     
  3. Quigley_Sharps

    Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member

    yup
     
  4. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I agree with the shotgun for a new shooter.A good pump with pistol grip fore end works well.But don't discount the .410.That is what my ex always kept for snake killing and such.She was comfortable with it and I found some pretty effective self defense rounds for it.
    The debate is endless over this caliber vs that and what is best,but it comes down to what they are comfortable with and what they have.You fight with the weapons you have not the ones you wish you had.I have found also that most women who are gun phobic won't put the time in to become profecient with any caliber.So it is better to have the simpleist to use weapon you can find.
     
  5. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I would definatly not go with the pistol grip in place of the stock, one on the pump may be fine if wanted but haveing the stock to set against the sholder will make it a lot less painful to shoot. I have known to many folks who got shotguns, usualy 12 ga., with pistol grips instead of a stock, shot it once hurt thier wrists and never did any more with it. I figure a reagular pump is best especialy for beginers, though I think minuteman was talking about on the slide for the pump. I just didnt want anyone new to guns to be confused and get one with pistol grips instead of a stock and get scared of it after shooting it, another reason I sugest the 20 guage also.
     
  6. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Ditto. I was talking about the fore end. My ex would shoot my 12 gauge but only after I put on the pistol grip fore end.She just felt more secure with the recoil I guess.Like I said it's what they are comfortable with.
     
  7. ghostrider

    ghostrider Resident Poltergeist Founding Member

    Mossberg youth model, shorter barrel and stock for a 20 gauge. Bird shot in the house, and 3" Federal #2 buck outside. Remington makes a 1 oz slug for a 20 gauge, deer, bears, two legged varmints in cars.

    Next choice, AR or Mini 14, light recoil, controllable, devastating up close.
     
  8. phishi

    phishi Psy-Ops Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I think that a pistol caliber carbine, or a M1 carbine should be considered also. Marlin's camp carbines, Rugers PC series, and Beretta's CX4 Storm are all ones I would consider. The Beretta leads the pack in my case, I like the fact that it can use the same mags as a 92F. (No, I don't think its the world's best pistol, but I like it better than the Ruger autos :D ). All are going to have light recoil, you can jack up its ability for self defence by useing hollow points, and they are sized just about right for a smaller framed individual.

    The M1 offers a slightly larger caliber (not by much) in the same sized package as what was listed above. I'm not sure there really is much advantage over any of the pistol caliber carbines. In the end, MM is right, if you have it with you, its what you use.

    I think there is something to be said for public impression of the visual aspect of firearms. To translate, Evil black gun vs. What John Wayne might have carried. If its steel and plastic and available in any color you want as long as its black, I believe that many gun phobic people will shy away. If it has a beautiful wood stock, well, so far I've been able to get my wife to shoot it. She is not a fan of firearms, but is slowly warming to the idea. Right now the only rifle she has fired is a Marlin 39A lever action .22. She has shot it because its a cowboy gun, which in her mind is less threatening than anything else in my collection. Maybe a lever action in .38/.357 would be a good choice also?

    Finally, while I list the above weapons as good choices for self defence, they would all be (with the exception of lever actions) poor choices for gathering game. Yes it could and would be done, but it would be a waste of a good self defence round. A weapon like a 20 gauge can be fitted for multiple roles. A long arm in .223 could be pressed into service to take deer. None of the carbines spoken of above would be my first choice for this, and I feel that this factors into the equation.

    Just some thoughts,
    phishi
     
  9. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Going to tell you right now that for women who are not used to guns you should probably get that AR-15 right out of your minds.

    For that matter get any semi-auto out of your minds unless you've at least started them on something. Same for handguns.

    22's for rifles, 20 gauge for shotguns, and probably nothing beyond a .32 or .38 for a handgun. And a revolver at that.

    You may get them up to speed with an AR or another rifle that is a semi after you start them off in time, but you can't start them off with one. To start out with they're too heavy a rifle for a beginner (and too intimidating for a non firearm person) and the object of this is to teach them to be able to shoot.

    Same with a handgun, or a shotgun. Start them out with something they can actually pick up and handle.

    If they've got any aptitude they'll improve quickly and you can advance them to that AR, 9mm, etc.
     
  10. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    For the most part I agree with you here, the exceptions being a Ruger 10/22 (it doesn't look evil) and a 1911. Why? Well a few years ago I took two ladies out shooting that had never shot before. We started on .22 rifles and then pistols. They wanted to shoot the auto pistols. They shot my Glock 9mm, my Beretta 9mm, but they loved the 1911. Keep in mind these were two very wealthy ladies that had never shot before. They loved the 1911. After shooting all of the above I asked them if they would like to shoot some more. They said "yes, and we want to shoot that big one." "Oh, you mean the .45?" "Yes, that one." The slim grip was more ergonomical for them than the double stack magazine wide grip, and they enjoyed it. I recognize not all will feel this way though. My wife didn't like my Beretta, Smiths, or Glocks. She really likes the 1911's though. The thing to keep in mind is be patient, and don't let them shoot enough to get bored or tired. Make them quit while it is still fun, make a game out of it, fill up ballons with water or air and have them shoot them, and always leave them wanting more. Make an excuse if you have to, but have them quit while they are still having fun. It will make them more than ready to go out and do it again. Once they get into it, give them the rifle/shotgun that is the biggest caliber that they enjoy and are proficient with. I love the 20 gauge, and feel it is great for women and young boys & girls. Once they get over the stigmatism of the looks, that AR is really fun to shoot. Once I get one with a collapsible stock and short barrel I am going to have my girls out shooting it. The full stock is just too long. I am working on another AR or two though, and I plan to give one to them for their own.

    Remember, be patient.
     
  11. TLynn

    TLynn Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    E.L., while I'm not arguing with you in regards to the 1911, I'm also looking at that female being able to maintain it. Unless she's a bit strange like me (I was taking apart things from the time I was tiny) she's going to have problems with the actual cleaning as well. One of the reasons I recommend a revolver.

    All that aside I agree the 1911 is the way to go, the recoil is actually lighter than some 9mm's (heck it's easier to shoot than my Beretta 92F technically speaking).

    It is not easier to cock the first time.

    And yes I agree to getting them up to bigger weapons and so forth - I do not agree with starting them out on a semi-auto rifle (not even the 10/22). I've been to the range and watched what happened with idiots - including males.

    Nope, I'd rather start them out on a bolt rifle - I can control them better - they've got one shot only at a time. You can quickly work them up to a semi-auto.

    However, it's different strokes for different folks...
     
  12. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    Mostly, I agree with T and EL. The difference lies in the starting (and arming) with handguns. I'd go with a 38/357 and stick with the revolver, DA. Racking an autoloader requires some physical strength that is not alway available.

    Long arms just about have to start with 20 ga. Graduate to rifles slowly, and a 44 mag carbine is not too bad a place to start. Says me, and me only.

    And just how many guns will get into the evacuatioin bags when the chopper comes over or the bus is loaded? Not too awful many, I'd say ofhand. A 380 might make it, but probably not for long.
     
  13. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    ...and keep at least one WELL hidden. The military is now stealing all guns from law abideing citizens in NO as part of thier house to house while trying to get them to leave. :cry:
     
  14. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I agree TLynn, a bolt gun and a revolver are great teaching tools and probably the first thing I would reach for to teach with. However, I wouldn't feel bad about teaching someone to shoot with a 10/22 as it is fun to shoot, has no kick, and with no recoil it is more conducive to proper shooting form. I guess I put myself in the place of this scenario. Thinking more from my standpoint of teaching my wife and daughters about shooting. As I am there to help them and to teach them over and over if need be how to properly maintain their 1911's. I just know the ladies I spoke of enjoyed shooting it more than others, and I thought that they would be more likely to shoot it more if they enjoyed it. For those that don't have someone to teach them and have the necessary knowledge and patience then no doubt a wheel gun is the answer. It is probably the answer irregardless at first.
     
  15. az1

    az1 Monkey+++ Founding Member

    wife picked a Marlin camp 9....loves it! :p
     
  16. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    This may be slightly off topic but it can be applied to teaching any novice to shoot.

    My youngest daughter has, since she was liittle, had my fascination with firearms. When she was old enough to start going with me to shoot, I wanted to teach her in the best way possible. I spent a lot of time reading in gun mags about training new shooters and talking to the guys at the range, gun store etc..

    This is the system I developed and it has worked great. I am now applying the same system to get my new, and previously gun phobic, wife into shooting.

    We started with balloons as targets. New shooters, especially young ones get bored easily with putting holes in paper. They like to see the immediate results of a good hit. I started my daughter with a Ruger Bearcat .22 revolver and a 10/22 rifle(all I had at the time). Balloon targets and with ratshot rounds. With the ratshot rounds at 15' it was nearly impossible to miss. This keeps them from getting frustrated. She would still miss on occasion and had to concentrate on aiming the barrel in the general direction.

    After some months of this she was to the point where she could hit everytime. Then we moved down to clay pidgeons for targets. Easy to break, but she had to be more precise in her aim. After she became profecient at that level we went down to lollipops. A 99 cent bag of lollipops and a cardboard box turned upside down. Stick the stick of the pop into the cardboard.

    After that we went back to ballons, but this time with regular bullets. Now she had to really sight in to be able to hit. I'll never forget the day that she finally figured out a proper sight picture. It was like discovering some magic formula. Then we again worked our way down to lollipops. This was over the course of a couple of years.

    On her 10th birthday I bought her a CZ 452 Scout. Great starter rifle. It has a single shot "faux" magazine. She has been shooting with it for two years now and this year she will be getting 2 -5 round magazines for it. And now that she is proficient with iron sights(Squirrels around our house don't stand a chance)I am going to introduce her to scopes. She will be inheriting the 10/22 and I am considering starting her on a semi-auto pistol this year. She has already been shooting my .45 and my AR-15.

    She is already an accomplished marksman(woman) and is one of the safest gun handlers you would ever want to shoot with. My friends and folks at the range are amazed at her level of safety awareness. She scolds grown men on unsafe handling if she sees it.

    This system has worked great for us, but it was a gradual thing over several years. And still ongoing. But I was more concerned with the quality of the results. Her goal has always been to compete on the Olympic shooting team. This or something similar could be incorporated into a much shorter timeframe.

    One thing I have found with my new wife is to just let her gradually get used to the idea. And to get comfortable around firearms. She was not raised around them and had a friend in high school commit suicide with a firearm. And she has been a nurse for 7 years and has seen many gunshot victims. She used to say "I've seen what guns can do". It took some time to get her to realize that she has also seen what motorcyles can do, what power tools can do, etc.. I explained to her that any tool that is misused will have devastating results.It is not the tools fault it is the operators. She has begun to realize that and to become comfortable around guns.(She didn't have much choice living with me). By letting her just sit by and watch as me and my daughter enjoyed ourselves shooting, has gotten her more accustomed to it, and to where she feels like she is missing out and now wanting to participate. If I had tried to push her into it she would have balked and shied away.

    She still has a bias against my "Evil" looking guns,but she likes my daughters little .22 rifle. And she is wanting to sign up for a gun familliarizing course at a local gun shop. It is a great course, geared specifically for women unfamilliar with firearms. With me away a lot of the time she is starting to realize her need to be able to defend her self. And she is smart enough to realize that it takes training and skill to do so with a firearm.

    Today is our third anniversary, I wonder what she would think of a Springfield XD for an anniversary present? Hmmm...
     
  17. RightHand

    RightHand Pioneer in a New World Moderator Founding Member

    Happy Anniversary Mr & Mrs Minuteman.

    You must be very proud of your daughter's progress. The Olympic team is a wonderful goal.
     
  18. melbo

    melbo Hunter Gatherer Administrator Founding Member

    Thanks for all the info and advice! I'll start putting it to use
     
  19. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Also would say for the shotti, go with a wide choke to start to help get them on paper from the start. Can get one with removeable tubes if you can and later go to tighter chokes for range and improveing accuracy but the wide choke also helps to reduce the recoil a bit more.
     
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