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Ritual Circumcision

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by chelloveck, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I had originally intended posting a reply in the thread regarding 15,000 Iranian troops in Syria in the Clucking Hens forum concerning Falcon's post, reproduced above, but as the matter had more to do with religion than geopolitical events in th Middle East, I decided to post it in a new thread in the Faith and Religion Forum rather than derailing the original thread with tangental discussion.

    My reply is as follows:

    I am aware of the Judaic customs and traditions concerning circumcision...my remarks were more for comedic effect than precision, and although the distinction is of greater concern to the faithful, than my intention of comedic effect, at the end of the day...it is the end (foreskin) of the child's penis that has been lopped off, without the child's consent, and whether it happens at or near birth...or at some magically ritualistic event some several days later...such kind of ritualistic religiose branding doesn't have much sensible justification. Let those who choose to adopt the Judaic faith elect to have their circumcision at their bar mitzva if they think it so important to have the end of their schlong peeled. At least the subject can make an informed choice about the risks and benefits of having the procedure done, before it is done.

    I am also aware of the practice of Metzitzah B'Peh, which some (many? most?) mohels perform on the infant as part of the ritual. In different contexts, if done by a Catholic priest...such a practice would attract outrage as an act of paederistic child abuse...but because it's a ritual performed for millenia with religiose conviction...meh...1st Ammendment rules!

    The late Christopher Hitchens had a more acerbic take on the matter....


    My own children, were born of Jewish lineage from their mother's side, thankfully of secular upbringing...there was no way in the world that I would let a manky mohel mouth at my children's genitals. Thankfully, my eventually to be ex agreed. My grand children have been baptised into the Catholic faith...so it's back to worrying about paederast priests...

    Christopher Hitchens: Circumcision - He destroys Rabbi Harold Kushner - YouTube
    Falcon15 likes this.
  2. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    Fair enough, I understand comedic statements, it was way out of context so I did not catch the humor.

    You know the most amazing thing occurs to a person of any reasonable discernment. The Jewish people, long before the advent of modern science, had many stringent laws regarding health, diet, handling of diseased persons, that all make GOOD common sense. This includes circumcision. Why these practices have fallen to the wayside is amazing. They were "inconvenient" or "restrictive" or "primitive", all because they originated from the Priesthood. Now, more persons practice some or all of the dietary restrictions (because a scientist say it is a healthy way to live) and many of the other ancient hygienic practices because science supports them! It amazes me that people cannot connect the dots. God created man, and revealed through his Word the way man should live.

    As to the ritualistic aspect of a circumcision, yes it has religious overtones. Why? Because according to the Torah (and the Old Testament) it was a directive from God. Abraham and his descendents did not need to make an "informed" decision, they were told what to do and did it. It is not a "ritual" but a covenant. It is a "setting apart" of the People from the rest of the world.

    The outward circumcision was to symbolize an inward circumcision that could only be preformed and seen by God. The parallels to New Testament baptism in this context should not be overlooked. It is possible for a Christian to be baptized without ever having been saved in the first place. It is also possible for a saved Christian to be baptized, and then backslide dragging others into great abomination. God has outward expectations, but only He knows the truth about the individual heart. So also, was it true for the Old Testament circumcised Jew or Gentile stranger. Only God sees the heart, and knows the truth of who will spend eternity in heaven or hell. God never keeps this great truth to Himself until judgment day, but freely confirms through His Spirit to the humbled individual that God's grace has been applied.

  3. Espada

    Espada Monkey+

    In metzitzah b'peh, the mohel places his mouth on the freshly circumcised penis to draw blood away from the cut. If the mohel is infected with oral herpes (as most adults are), metzitzah b'peh can expose the infant to the herpes virus. While severe illness associated with this practice may be rare , there is a definite risk of infection.
    Oral herpes spreads easily through saliva, especially when saliva... .

  4. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Who needs blood sucking mohelim?? Children certainly don't

    No...Yahweh, if he exists, being the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibeneficent supernatural creature that He is presumed to be, must bear some responsibility for countenancing this abusive (remember, the victim is invariably a non consenting minor), disgusting, barbaric, superstitious practice. (Parental consent doesn't count...it just makes the parents procurers and accessories to what otherwise would be considered a criminal act of child sexual abuse).

    Just because child circumcision is an ancient religious ritual practiced by mohelim for millenia does not mean that it is a practice that can be justified now; in the same way that we no longer countenance ancient religious traditions of human sacrifice either. If circumcision is still deemed to be essential, let it be a medical procedure in a medical facility with medical professionals and appropriate infection control measures, rather than as a superstitious religious ceremony involving a penile blood sucking mohel!
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    When you are talking about "Jewish" customs it is not the same thing as Hebrew, or Israelite laws and traditions. All Judahites are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Judahites. And the perverted "Judaic" religious traditions come from pagan Babylon not from old testament teachings.
    The Yahweh ordained practices called for in Exodus were to purge the Israelites of their unhealthy and pagan beliefs and practices aquired over their 4 century soujurn in Egypt. They are mostly health issues, such as circumcision practiced today for health reasons. No where in scipture does it instruct one to suck the blood or any number of other pagan practices of the cult of Judaism.
    If the dietary and health instructions issued to the Israelite in Exodus were followed today they have been determined to produce a much healthier and more disease free life. But they were written for that people at that time. Many of the requirements for their 40 year trek through the desert were later rescinded.
  6. Espada

    Espada Monkey+

    Uvazhaimii tovarishch, that exclamation was my attempt at theological humor, not an analysis of responsibility !

    : )
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