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Seven or Twelve Apostles?

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by tacmotusn, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    Who says you can learn nothing of value from TV, the so called idiot box?
    Actually today while drinking my first cup of coffee and watching the no news news there was a fluff piece with a small Jewish woman with a couple of her family members who was preparing her traditional Holiday Dinner that she called the feast of the seven fishes. When questioned she indicated this was to show respect for the Seven Apostles.
    Now I am sure that comment went over the heads of 9 out of 10 listeners in the good olde USA. We have become that type of nation. (ill informed, unquestioning, and apathetic, as well as non-secular on a personal level).
    Having suffered through years of Catholicism Classes during my formative years prior to being declared an adult in the church, this number 7 for the apostles was not what I was taught. Many decades have passed since that training and I have become wary of Organized Religion and their intolerance of other religions, and much much more. I also became aware of contradictions within the various versions of the MAN edited and interpreted printed Bible.
    So the Question is; were there Seven or Twelve Apostles ..... or 11 or 70 or 13? Does it even matter? It seems to me that Jesus started with one apostle and it grew from there. So time would be the factor. Every word in the Man edited Bible did not happen on the same day or year or decade.
    The human condition is such, that as imperfect beings, we will often fight over and die even over seemingly insignificant slights and misconceptions of ancient events forgetting in doing the basic concepts for moral living of the 10 commandments. I wish you all Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards your fellow man.
    Here is a link that I found with regard to the Question. The Seven Apostles
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  2. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Matthew 19:28 (NIV)

    • 28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

      There were 12. Everything in scripture, everything in Christs life had meaning. Every little detail was ordained and reflected his divinity and divine mission.
      After Judas committed suicide the apostles elected one to take his place to maintain the number at twelve.

      The Choosing Of Matthias

      "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away; and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
      "In those days Peter stood up among the brethren, the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty, and said, "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry."

      "Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood."

      "For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and 'His office let another take.'"

      "So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that The Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when He was taken up from us - one of these men must become with us a witness to His resurrection."

      "And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "Lord, Who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two Thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place." And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles." (Acts 1:12-26 RSV)

    Mindgrinder likes this.
  3. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    MM, no disrespect intended, but did you bother to even check the link. The reason I ask is because several are common biblical reverences, chapter and verse, that may agree or disagree with your reference above. I also assume you are aware that the biggest editor to the Bible has been the Catholic Church via those in charge at the Vatican, and that there are books of the Bible which are authentic, but in one way or another not in full alignment with current Biblical teachings, also some duplication, and other reasons for non-disclosure.
  4. Rabid

    Rabid Monkey

    I find it odd that Mark does not include Luke and Luke's list does not include Mark. There were according to my Bible 12 apostles but there were crowds of people gather around him to learn from him. Mr. Webster's definition is:
    noun \ə-ˈpä-səl\
    : any one of the 12 men chosen by Jesus Christ to spread the Christian religion
    : someone who believes in or supports an idea, cause, etc
    It would seem to me by definition that there could have been thousands of apostles at that time. Compare that to the billions of disciples up until today.
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Yes I read the article in the link. It is one authors speculations and the sources he most cites are from non scriptural texts. A lot of the "gospels", and other writings were written sometimes centuries after the events, such as the gnostic gospels and the Epistula Apostolorum that this author is quoting. These are not included in scripture as they were deemed to be untrustworthy and not divinely inspired. I don't agree with everything that the council of Nicea decreed concerning the works that were rejected but many were correctly excluded from the scripture.
    Another mistake this author makes is not distinguishing between apostle and disciple. Christ had many followers and he appointed many for different tasks.

    Luke 10:1-17. "Now after these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place where he himself was about to come. . . . And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through thy name."

    Acts 6:3-5. "Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the spirit and wisdom . . ." So they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the holy spirit, also Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism."

    Just because these are mentioned does not mean they were apostles. The apostles were the hierarchy of the early church and they were to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the millennium. That is why they knew that after Judas died they had to elect another to fill the required 12 positions.
    Any where in scripture, and I have texts in the original languages and most of the books that were excluded from the bible also, and in any reliable text you will find 12 apostles. It is the number that was required and ordained. There were many disciples and other followers but the apostleship was and remained at 12.
  6. Airtime

    Airtime Monkey+++ Site Supporter

    Centuries ago, actually a bit before the era of Guttenberg, a monastery acquired a smart new young monk. His first task was to make hand copies of various church documents. It didn't take him long to figure out he was making copies from copies that had been copied from copies from copies from copies...

    He brought to the attention of the head monk that if a mistake was made once in awhile that these would aggregate with the numerous seccessions of copies. The head monk grasp this but wondered how to rectify the problem. The new monk suggested they take a set of copies down into the vaults where the originals were stored for safe keeping and correct the copies and then make all subsequent copies from the corrected/verified versions. All the monks were impressed and the new and head monks went down to the vaults.

    Several days later the monks heard sobbing coming from the vaults. They rushed down asking the two monks sitting on the floor sobbing what was the problem. The head monk replied, "The word was celeBRATE!"

    Merry Christmas
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  7. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor

    Mindgrinder, you are trolling. Your post also has exactly nothing to do with why this thread was started. My thread starting post had a question and a statement highlighted. One might say that was the core of the post. In the Christmas spirit, even if you may fancy yourself a troll or a Grinch, I will apply the statement there to you. Love don't hate or stir the pot, and You will make a whole lot more friends. Considering that records were not kept all that well in those ancient times, I see no way you could prove or disprove exactly when anyone in those days was born. When followers choose to celebrate the birth of the son of God is moot. Have a wonderful holiday season no matter what you choose to believe or disbelieve.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2013
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  8. Rabid

    Rabid Monkey

    Mindgrinder that statement is just plain stupid. Yes, Jesus was probably born in the spring of the year but there is no exact date of his birth. Without looking it up I think it was in the eighth century that the Pope declared the day to celebrate the birth of Christ to be December 25. The reason for doing this was to keep early Christians from participating in pagan festivals. The introduction of good old Saint Nick, AKA Santa, is story that grew out of proportion opening the door to commercialize Christmas. As for "Santa worshiping lie lovers", you're drinking too much of your own Kool-Aid.
    Celebrate Christmas every day because He gave us new life. Celebrate Easter every day because He died to give us eternal life.
    kellory and ghrit like this.
  9. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja Jedi Bipolar WINNING M.L.F.

    Ah...when telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
    Frankly, it was said in good jest but if you insist on being so serious....
    Jesus doesn't live in a book.
    Powerful men, or men seeking power depending on how u look at it....chopped up the original bible else we would be having conversations aboot demons(other dimensional beings), fallen angels(aliens), Jesus having kids with Lady Mag, and so forth.

    In terms of my trolling grinchyness....even if the truth is not popular it's still gotta be told.
    It pains me to see that most people think it's unimportant to celebrate His birthday on an accurate date. It pains me to see grown men engaging in lies to children fueled by greedy intent.

    The spirit of giving is very good.
    The spirit of Dec 25'th is corporation of christ lies engineered to fill pew, coffers and increase debt.

    "Santa" reminds me very much of a government LEO who decides if I've been obedient enough all year to get a tax return. Belief in this conditions kids very early to look for gifts from outside their family unit as well as transfers authority on who decides "what is wrong or right" to a uniform.
    I don't worship uniforms.

    AFAIK JC was born Sept 11'th 3 BC and it's my gift to you to share my 'truth' and accuracy matters to me spiritually.
  10. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja Jedi Bipolar WINNING M.L.F.

    Same corporation of christ church that hacked up the bible and looked the other way when their priests became pedophiles. As far as the timing to coincide with the winter solstice to encourage Christianity....
    "Can't beat'em - Join'em" is not biblical. (don't even bother with the "when in Rome" quotes.
    It amuses me every year to tell people the truth of it and see their condescending reactions both IRL and online. Being ridiculed and judged falsely for telling the truth is quite Christ-like.
    WWJD? He wouldn't tell you to go shopping on your credit card and lie to your kids. Psure.
    You are right though...i'm prolly just drinking too much kool-aid.
  11. fmhuff

    fmhuff Monkey+++

    I do agree that it doesn't matter the number other than making sure that error doesn't creep into the scripture.

    In the New Testament it is very clear by the words of Jesus that there were twelve.

    John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” So he chose the twelve knowing one (Judas) would betray him.

    After the suicide of Judas the remaining Apostles picked a replacement to bring the number back up to twelve. Acts 1:26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

    According to Acts 9, later on the road to Damascus a persecutor of the Church and devout Pharisee named Saul was met by the Lord himself, stricken with blindness and told to wait in Damascus. Three days later he was met by, healed, and filled with the Holy Spirit through a disciple named Ananias by the Lords prompting.

    Saul after his conversion is referred to as the "Apostle Paul". So I count 14 total.

    Acts 9:4, 5 He fell to the ground and heard a voice. It said to him, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you attack me?’ ‘Who are you, *Lord?’ Saul asked. ‘I am Jesus, whom you are attacking’, he replied.

    1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the *apostles. I do not even deserve that you should call me an *apostle. I attacked the church of God.

    Ephesians 3:8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, he blessed me. He sent me to tell the *Gentiles about the enormous riches of Christ.

    I Cor 9:1,2 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

    There are those sects of Christianity today that think there are thousands of Apostles now living that carry the same authority as those in the new testament. There are others who believe in only one who sits on the "Throne" of Peter.

    Many believe there are three major requirements to be an Apostle.

    1. The Apostle had to be an eyewitness of the risen Christ Jesus.

    2. The Apostle had to have been commissioned directly by Jesus himself.

    3. The Apostle was invested with miraculous power to the extent that he could perform miracles as a sign of authority.

    No biblical evidence exists to indicate that these Apostles were replaced when they died. Jesus appointed the Apostles to do the founding work of the Church, and foundations only need to be laid once. After the Apostles’ deaths, other offices, not requiring an eye-witness relationship with Jesus, would carry on the work.

    Though men are vested with authority by the Holy Spirit in being a disciple I would make no statement one way or the other. IMHO though the Apostles had a place and a function. Many of those claiming the office today show little or no evidence of the originals power or authority. But the Lord did say that many false teachers would come after him.

    Could there be true Apostles of Jesus Christ today. Yes, because God is not limited to our understanding. I am sure however that there will be proof.

    You know however that Satan will come in the last days as an Angel of light with false teachings and miracles to deceive and destroy as many as possible, even the elect?

    IMO the only defense is to be very tight with the Lord.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2013
  12. Mindgrinder

    Mindgrinder Karma Pirate Ninja Jedi Bipolar WINNING M.L.F.

    Amen to that.
    If your prayers aren't more important chores than reading the bible...you're doing it wrong.
  13. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Paul was later added by Christ as the 13 apostle as he was to take the gospel to the gentiles. And he will be the judge over the gentile church in the millinium. So the 12 tribes of Israel and the gentile church. 13 were needed and were commissioned.
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