Shotguns r extremely limited use items

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by rictus, Nov 6, 2010.

  1. rictus

    rictus Monkey+

    They are not worthy of inclusion in a survivalist's battery, IMHO, because the money and time spent on them can't then be spent on the far superior AR-15 autorifle (and its .22lr conversion unit.) The .22 unit is what makes the AR so versatile. It offers quiet practice or foraging, without wasting the bulky, noisy 223 ammo.

    Against "cover-using" men, buckshot is pretty much worthless beyond 20m, if using a typical (chokeless) "riot gun" barrel. 20m heads are an easy "snapshot" with a .22lr autorifle, so I'm not at all content with the capability of the shotgun.

    Have you ever tried using a pump action while prone? Have you tried to reload a tubular magazine while prone? How about in the dark, either while wearing gloves, or with cold-numbed fingers? How about while lying in the snow, or mud, or water?

    Are you aware that using different loads of buckshot will change both the POI of the charge, relative to your aim, as well as the pattern-spread? Aare you aware that buckshot and slugs almost never share a common POI? So which will you zero your sights for?

    Do you know what your pattern spread is at various ranges? Are you aware how feeble a hit 1-2 buck pellets really is? They hit like 380 pocket pistol bullets, so you need to get at least 4 of them into the chest cavity, or it's not reasonable to expect one shot to stop a man. Very few riot guns will reliably do this beyond 25m.

    How many of each type of shell will you actually carry? That is, birdshot for foraging, slugs, and buckshot? They run about 10 shots to the lb, and are very bulky. So you probably won't have more than a dozen of each type. That = not much combat ability, if the noise of your foraging "calls in" some desperate looter types!

    I'm sorry if this steps on a lot of toes, but it's the demonstrable facts of the shotgun. The shotgun slug is not very useful without a set of rifle type sights on your 12 ga. Slugs and buckshot are very expensive, so very few people get adequate practice with them. shotshells are very fragile, and prone to contamination. The tubular magazine ditto, and it is both under capacity and slow and awkward to use.
  2. Gray Wolf

    Gray Wolf Monkey+++

    It must be nice to be young enough that you still know everything.
    Did you ever stop to consider that for the price of your "superior AR-15" and it's conversion unit one could have a shotgun, a bolt action rifle, and still have enough left over for a .22 rifle? And with that small battery, 3 people could be armed instead of just one? That perhaps some of us live in heavily forested areas, and a shotgun with buckshot is handy for dealing with varmints in the brush? Not to mention using it to put waterfowl in the pot?
    Ever try shooting a goose on the wing with your "superior AR-15"?
    If it works for you, fine. But there are too many variables in life for a 1 gun solution to all potential problems.
  3. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    You are young enough to still be daft..... and hopefully this can be corrected with training and experience.

    Forty years of shooting a variety of firearms shows me the shotgun is the most versatile of all firearms. And experience with your shotgun allows you to correct for different loads in aiming. Not a hard thing to learn.
    It doesn't replace ANY of my guns - rifle, pistol, .22.... All are of use in their proper role.
  4. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    In a hole in a forest somewhere near you??

    If you read rictus's posts 1 & 3 in Financial Cents / "I bought a house, but not to live in"; General Survival / "The Group " post #42; and Back to Basics / "Low Cost Preps "Post #1.....I think that when the ramen noodles and the ammo runs out after hunting bunnies with his '22lr, he may decide that living in a hole in the ground the size of a grave is not as appealing as he seems to think it might which case I wonder if the fallback plan B is to just take his '15 and tag along with a golden horde, or one of Kurt Saxon's Killer Caravans as a gun-for-hire, or perhaps do a little solo negotiating with local homesteaders with the back up of Rule ".223"? Perhaps the critters rictus is most concerned about aren't the two legged ones with feathers kind.

    I think I'd be more than a little concerned if he were in my neighbourhood. : O
  5. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I believe you need to re-think things a bit. For one thing, there are few folks in the defensive field that advocate a shottie in the field. Inside a structure, they are hard to beat, and the load selection is far less critical at 20 feet than it is at 20 yards.
  6. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    After the hookey that "clemsonguy81" posted awhile back, I will not comment on the cognitive levels of our new member other than to say, 'keep em' coming" rictus, I can use all the laughs that I can get.
  7. Gray Wolf

    Gray Wolf Monkey+++

    Well, I live in a real world, not a doomsday fantasy place. Our Sheriff's Dept has eliminated the second shift due to lack of funds, and we are told that if it's not murder or rape, we're on our own. We are not even supposed to telephone them, we're to submit a report online!
    For murder or rape, they will come out after the fact and do an investigation!
    That's cold comfort to the victims.
    I know from EXPERIENCE the value of the shotgun and the .22 rifle,
    as well as the other tools in the homestead inventory.
  8. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    AHA! Pegged the little twerp. He's been around plenty of other forums. "Oh Yeah", and "Plumb" were some popular names he has used. His slavish devotion to the vaunted Poodle Popper above ALL else is his signature....... [own2]
  9. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    And in a post Wally-world world. where all retail is gone. and ammo is precious. I like the idea of having a re-loadable shotgun hull where I can, make my own propellant (black,white or red). Choose what I want to fling down range (steel rollers from axle bearings, nails, rocks, solid sections of rebar,... etc) and reload it myself without a specialized press (yes that makes them nice but you can do-it by hand and they can't steal knowledge).

    A rifle platform is going to be a lot less forgiving. unless you have a stockpile of loaded ammo in a number of caches. once it's gone it's gone. it's not like the rifle is going to be happy spitting something other than 50 to 75gr pill while burning a charge of commercial ball or stick propellent.

    as for range. the newer sabot rounds for 12 gauge are freaking awesome, expensive as hell but very accurate out to 200 yards (175 meters).

    By accurate I mean Minute Of Man. If i can hit a 12x12 target with my weapon I call it MOM. do you really need to shoot the wings off a fly at 300 yards? when hitting a watermelon like skull would do just fine?

    so then know your limitations for each weapon
    weapon/ hit area 6x6 12x12
    air rifle
    pistol cartridge
    pistol blackpowder
    shotgun birdshot
    SG Buckshot
    SG Slug
    SG Sabot
    22 Lr rifle
    rifle blackpowder
    battle rifle
    sniper rifle
    recoiless gun
    field gun
    W48 shell for Davey Crocket
    Atomic Annie
    w87 attached to a PeaceKeeper.

    knowing what you can hit at what distance, you can select an appropriate weapon for the target, terrain and conditions. My 12 gauge loaded with #4 buck (27 6mm dia projectiles) are going to beat a single 5.56 pill chucker in the swamp that is my stomping ground. if you can see 50 feet in the fall and winter or 20 in summer in my swamp you are doing well. but in the 80 acre cornfield. I'd be way out gunned. so i'd avoid the cornfield. I am not going to stand in an open field with any weapon system and have a 'shootin' match. I am going to do my damnedest to use cover to my full advantage, give my opponent the smallest target and force him to move where i want, even if it is blazing a few buck shot rounds,etc to his left when i want him to go to the man trap to his right. don't have to hit him, just make him go where i want, either to catch him, or provide me with additional time/blocking cover to escape unseen.

    You need to remember, the most dangerous weapon you have is your mind!
    so know your weapons, know your area, have a plan and know your limitations.[beer]
  10. STANGF150

    STANGF150 Knowledge Seeker

    Theres times I miss being back when I was young & dumb, but then theres also times I don't. This is one those times I definately don't. b::

    The nice thing about shotguns, they don't seem to fill their owners with a hyper-inflated artificial sense of superiority. [kneelsuckers]
  11. ppro

    ppro Monkey+

    Just joined the forum and couldn't resist this thread.....

    Shotguns ARE primary part of my battery and will stay that way.

    You all have covered the post pretty well which is good, since the gentleman simply doesn't know what he is about in the matter the value of a shotgun.

    Sure our batteries include other weapons for use as may apply, but the shotgun is one of if not my primary go to weapon for up close fast moving home or otherwise.

    I am old (well, feeling old anyway...possibly road hard put away wet syndrome) and I STILL pack a gun for a living.....spent the better part of my life getting paid to pack.... and if nothing else, I have learned the value of a shotgun.....

    Do make it a part of your battery..learn to use it well and understand it's won't regret it.

  12. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Wow.... I'm not sure what spurned this. I generally agree the .22 LR is more versatile than the shotty, I still think the shotty has it's place. We still use them in combat. Breaching, non-lethal, and lethal. While I say I prefer the .22, I have been known to hunt with a 12 ga and some #6 in heavy cedar brush for bushytails. You refer to the riot guns a lot, but remember that the beauty of a shotty is interchangeable barrels. I can hunt turkey, deer, or man with the same gun and three barrels. More importantly, for the budgeted prepper, shottys are a good value (I'd add a .22 for value as well as the 2 minimum).

    I don't see the shotty leaving our military inventory anytime soon. Hunters aren't getting rid of them either. I can't see mine going anywhere, despite the fact that I own more than a few AR carbines, SCAR, and a handful of .308 variants as well.
  13. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    All weapons are situational... some are better for somethings than others... terrain will effect the usefulness of the weapon... if i was hunkered down and protecting my family down a narrow hall i'd prefer a shotgun...and add a duck bill and you have a better spread...At around fifteen yards the pattern is around 14 inches high by about 4 feet wide... if i remember it right... use an old trench broom and you can slam fire as fast as you can shuck it... I loves my stevens 520 :D
  14. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Well, I don't know about that! I think my 12 ga. Saiga with a 20 rd drum is the bestest weapons system knownz to man. Unless of course you have a Photon Torpedo system attached to your BugOut vehicle.[elim]
  15. hickman

    hickman Monkey+

    well, from experience, there are few tools that match the humble shotgun for sheer versatility "in-close". As said above, you can tune a shotgun from less lethal to "stop a bear" as the situation requires, they work gret from 0-100 yds with the correct ammo, and let's face it; if you are on this site, and carrying a shotgun, you can reasonably be assumed to have done your homework on the ammo you are carrying. That being said, there are better choices for the more specialized uses, ie assaulting positions, defending positions at distance, precision shots, concealed carry etc.
  16. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Poor old rictus seems to have vanished. Not so bad a thing. What we can hope for is that he's lurking as a guest, reading and learning rather than planting more useless incorrect "facts" for more debate and ridicule.
  17. Gray Wolf

    Gray Wolf Monkey+++

    Well, it's not my intent to run someone off, but he is young, and he can still learn.
  18. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    He thought he had been 'forgotten', but a troll's modus operandi follows him like a cloud. He's been found out and he knows it. :mad:
  19. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    The shotgun is a valuable tool, sending 9 35 caliber rounds down range at 1300 fps with Buckshot. Don't bug out with out one. You can take deer, dove, quail, turkey and other good food with it. I'll have a shotgun over one shoulder an the 'superior AR' over the other if I have to roam.
  20. Falcon15

    Falcon15 Falco Peregrinus

    I second that.b::
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