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Slant Angle-or poor shooting?

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by M118LR, Jul 11, 2017.

  1. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Way back when there was a 1/4 mile of Maine Quakies. (Thumb thick trees by the thousands) When you were inside them you would be lucky to see 10 feet, and swinging a rifle was even more difficult. Well of course all the Big Bucks used the area once the season opened, so Mr. New England (Names hidden to protect the innocent) and I found an old oak at the edge of the Quakies. Once we strapped a 20 foot ladder to the Oak and fashioned a permanent blind, suddenly all the of the area was visible.
    Now Mr. New England had been born on that land and had hunted it with his 30-30 lever action all his life. Never had he needed a second shot to down a deer with his open sighted 200 yard zeroed 30-30 lever action in his lifetime. (Yup, he was about the best shooting woodsman I've run across.)
    To get right to the point. From the 20+ foot elevation, with his 200 yard zeroed 170 grain 30-30, at roughly 100 yards for the first time in his life it was a clean miss on a really large buck. He was so upset that he rechecked the 200 yard zero once he came down from the stand. Yup, it was dead still dead on. Rifle performed flawlessly just like always.
    So was it Poor Shooting, or could the slant angle had something to do with it?

    PS (Nowadays Mr. New England has a dedicated Scoped Ruger Bolt Action .308 Win for use in the stand, and he's proven that it works.) But with his feet on the ground, the Old 30-30 has never needed a second shot to this day.
    Dunerunner, sec_monkey and GOG like this.
  2. T. Riley

    T. Riley Monkey+++ Site Supporter++

    Motomom34, GOG, Oltymer and 2 others like this.
  3. Tempstar

    Tempstar Old and crochety Site Supporter+

    Things change when your footing does, as much as shooting position. There may have been some nervousness from being elevated as well. 100 yards out from 20' of elevation works out to about 6 degrees of slant, not enough to cause a clean miss, less than 1/4 MOA.
    sec_monkey, Motomom34, GOG and 2 others like this.
  4. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Excellent info T. Riley, but would I be asking to much if you opined as to if it was poor shooting or an error in slant angle calculation?
    Isn't a 170 grain 30-30 about 5 inches high at 100 yards with a 200 yard zero on level ground?
    So best case at 100 yards would barely strike a ten inch pie plate on level ground?
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
    sec_monkey, GOG and T. Riley like this.
  5. T. Riley

    T. Riley Monkey+++ Site Supporter++

    I can not from my own experience. All I know on the subject is what I have read. Thus, the link.
  6. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    No one can take away an education, the odds of surviving an experience without a previous education are even further limited.
    Those that know not and know that they know not are uneducated, teach them.
    Those that know, but fear that they know not lack confidence, support them.
    Those that know, but know that they can no longer do are teachers, listen to them.
    Those that know not and know not that they know not are FOOLS, shun them. JMHO.
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  7. T. Riley

    T. Riley Monkey+++ Site Supporter++

    My neighbor and his wife were in a tree stand shooting at a group of hogs under their feeder. Both are excellect shots, he the long gun trainer from a local PD. They had a camera on the feeder that actually recorded the impact of the rounds. They missed. Both were astonished and pulled the SD card to see what happen. Both had overshot. These guns were dead on at 100 yards. That is the extent of my experiance on the subject and that is second hand.
  8. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    If you shot strait up what would your MOA be ?
    If you shot strait down what would your MOA be ?
    Changing the relationship of gravity to bullet weight and speed alters every thing.
    Gravity is still strait down , whether you are shooting up a hill or down a valley.
    If your shooting strait horizontal across valley at the same level than it would be no different than if your shooting across a wide open plane.
    Shooting up or down the bullet is going to be high on the sights set for level events.
    M118LR and T. Riley like this.
  9. Bishop

    Bishop Monkey+++

    Could have something to do with mucule memory and the recoil of the rifle at the angle he was shooting the shouldering of he stock even the best miss
    M118LR likes this.
  10. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Or it may also depend on the Muzzle Velocity of that 170 Grain Projectile.... Not all 170 Grain 30-30 Rounds have the same Muzzle Velocity... This would seem to be mitigated by him checking the Zero at 200Yds right after the shot, HOWEVER, were both Rounds from the same Lot, and OEM? It does make a Difference....
    M118LR likes this.
  11. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    Since he began zeroing the New Ruger .308 Win from atop the Stand, he is yet to need a second round to harvest even the largest of Bucks. While still using the 30-30 Lever & it's 170 grain load afoot, he has yet to need a second round to harvest. I'll leave Y'all to draw your own conclusions.
  12. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    If that is true, then your Friend just plain got Buck Fever, on the shot in question, and it had nothing to do with Slant Angles...
  13. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    A short review may be in order.
  14. OldDude49

    OldDude49 Just n old guy

    IIRC there is a kinda thing that happens at a certain angle down or up... something about aiming lower then normal or you might miss?

    has to do with gravity or something?
    M118LR likes this.
  15. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    Does nobody learn how to adjust their sights for the shot they are taking?? Or am I missing something,
    M118LR likes this.
  16. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    A little geometry needed, but it is not difficult. Imagine a triangle with one leg directly from you to the target. (Makes no difference if the target is above or below you.) Now, add a horizontal line from you. Now, drop (or raise) a vertical line from the target to intersect the horizontal line. The horizontal line represents the distance that your shot would have to cover, and you would have to compensate for drop. The angled line from you to the target is longer, but reflects the time of flight of the projo, which makes no difference for the equations. You can see that you need to compensate for the actual horizontal distance, not the longer range on the angled leg. If you use the calculated drop for the horizontal distance, you will be spot on going either up hill or down.
    M118LR likes this.
  17. M118LR

    M118LR Caution: Does not play well with others.

    This fuzzy math stuff. A squared + B squared = C squared. So 20' squared + 300' squared = C Squared. 400 + 90000 = 90400
    Square root 300.666 rounded up, slant range seems insignificant. But shooting between all those trees with only iron sights, well I'll bet it was more difficult than looking through glass like he has on the flatter shooting Bolt Action Ruger in .308 Win. But I'll never really know. Only thing that was for sure, Mr New England missed.
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