So maybe I don't want to become a gunsmith.

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by VisuTrac, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    I was entertaining the idea of getting into refinishing firearms.
    That involves taking possession of customers firearms
    which entails having a FFL.
    then it gets messy. FFL 01 or is it a FFL 07.
    01 is dealer/gunsmith.
    07 is manufacturer.

    seems pretty straight forward, I'm just going to refinish an existing firearm, but If I say recrown the barrel or drill and tap for a scope that could improve the accuracy of the firearm, or hone the barrel, now I'm a fricken manufacturer? And if i'm a manufacturer, I have to register with the state department and pay an annual fee of over 2k eventhough I'm not importing or exporting small arms.

    And looking at the definitions/regs/rule on the ATF and State Department website is making my brain hurt.
  2. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    IMO only, learn the skills, but do not go thru the regulatory process unless you are going major commercial. ;)
    stg58 likes this.
  3. Pax Mentis

    Pax Mentis Philosopher King |RIP 11-4-2017

    Once upon a time, my office was next to the "BATF***Ers" (as we "affectionately" called them) and they openly laughed about the fact that the rules/regs were written so badly they could find any dealer or manufacturer in violation any time they wished. Honestly, I never ran across another agency with as consistent a group of badged scumbags as that one. California Highway Patrol comes closest, but they are at least real police instead a "regulatory agency" with guns and an attitude.
  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    If you only work on already Serial Numbered FireArms, the you are NOT a Manufacturer.... If you finish Raw 80% Receivers, then you ARE a Manufacturer... It is the Receiver, or Serial Numbered Part, that is the Difference.... All a GunSmith needs is an FFL, AS LONG AS HE ONLY WORKS ON serial numbered FireArms, and does NOT modify them into A Different Class of Weapon. (Shot barreled Rifle, Any other Device/Weapon, or Select Fire/Machine Gun) You can Drill & Tap to your Hearts content, Rebarrel, ReChamber, Do Trigger Jobs, Crown a Barrel, or refinish a Stock, or even a Receiver, as long. As you do NOT MESS with the Serial Number... I knew an Old Boy who only manufactured Black Powder Rifles & Pistols... He was NEVER an FFL, and ATF visited him, periodically, to make sure that is ALL he ever did. After about 20 Years, they finally just left him alone. I bought one his last .50 Caliber Rifles that he ever built. It is AlaskaChicks prized Rifle....
    VisuTrac likes this.
  5. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I have been an FFL for three Decades, and in multiple States. I have been inspected, EXACTLY Once, in all that time. Granted, I usually sell maybe a couple of FireArms a year, but I put ALL my FireArms, in my FFL INVENTORY. This makes it a FEDERAL Felony for ANYONE, to remove them from my Possession, and that includes ALL State and local Law Enforcement. There is NO ECEPTION for State and local Law Enforcement, in the Gun Control Act of 1968, as amended, Period..... My FFL also allows me to purchase at Wholesale Pricing, for FireArms, Ammunition, and Assessories, which is not a bad Perk, that makes up for the all the paperwork issues.
    Oltymer and VisuTrac like this.
  6. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Yes, my plan is to only work on already serialized firearms.
    What is causing my brain to hurt is the State Departments summer surprise that their definition of manufacturer vs ATF's def are conflicting.

    ATF says I can repair a customers firearm w/o being a manufacturer. I can do a trigger job or barrel crown if requested.

    State Department ITAR ruling says if I "improve the accuracy or operation of the firearm beyond its original capabilities" I'm a manufacturer and need to register, pay 2250 per year or 20 yrs / 1MM in fines. WTF!

    Fine, I'll just sell firearms then and skip the gunsmithing part of it all together.

    as for the visit from ATF. I'd expect that they would indeed visit. I've previously held a FFL Collectors License. Part of the license is that they can show up from time to time and inspect / ensure that the rules are being followed. As long as one follows the rules, dot's the i's and crosses the t's and don't venture into areas where your license doesn't permit you to go .. like NFA items, building AR's and 1911s from components and then reselling them. Things should go ok.

    Record keeping is the key. If one gets sloppy or doesn't complete the entries accurately .. that's when it gets ugly for the license holder. And I don't want to be that guy.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  7. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    To understand gun laws and regulations spend several hours reading them every weekend for about 2 years then you will get it.

    Don't call it lapping, let's go with "really good cleaning".
    VisuTrac likes this.
  8. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Once in 30 Years, by the ONE, and ONLY ATF Resident Agent in Alaska, is NOT all that burdensome, in my Book... and that is why I keep sending in the renewal Application every couple of years.... and I can help out a Neighbor, or Buddy, if I choose to....
    GOG and VisuTrac like this.
  9. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    You could be like me...they sent a letter to me to the wrong address, and when we didn't get it, they only gave me a cursory call before throwing my app away SEVERAL months later...gonna be next week before I know if we got the whole thing straightened out.
  10. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    Problem as I understand it from a friend who had an on line business is that Obummer used the state department and the un nations rules ,ITAR, to bypass congress. That brought into the rules that if you buy **** parts or weapons you may have to file with the state department that it is not for export and that doing **** makes you need a special manufacture license as you could export it or to meet un regulations. Certifying that you are not exporting x may well be a method of registering the parts , and the rules are un clear and no one I know is willing to say just what they are. Area is so grey at the moment that he is effectively out of business until it is either codified or repealed by Trump. Ultimate catch 22, illegal if you don't do paper work, but if you do the paper work, you may be proving that you in deed did break some law and not knowing so is not a defense. Typical example is the 922r rules, imported rifle may be legal with x us component count parts used to meet the rules with a us made 30 round magazine, but illegal with a foreign made 11 round magazine. As I read the BTAF rules, if I run a repair business, I have to keep track of any weapon that is in the shop for over one day, A and D forms, and if a person other than the person who gave me the gun picks it up, I have to run a background check and record who got the gun and thus looks as though I have to have a dealers license or be da**** careful to even polish a gun overnight under the rules for a business and "they" get to define who is a business and it could be the decision is made after the fact and ignorance of the rules is not a defense. God help you if you are in Kalifornia and someone running for an office is looking for an example to prove how tough he is..
  11. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I think it's more a reflection of the fact that prostitution is becoming the more socially acceptable of the two occupations. :whistle:
    Gator 45/70 and VisuTrac like this.
  12. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    With the new "society", the prostitutes have a hard time competing with those giving it away.
  13. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    The useful idiots department probably can't tell the difference between a muzzle crown and a glory hole anyways.
    I think everyone only goes by atf guide lines anyway.
    The only other time I was aware of any state department involvement was on the in port and export side of things.

    Used to be that there was no state department involvement, unless they took a giant leap upon to the antigun band waggon under this administration?
  14. Tevin

    Tevin Monkey+++

    I've seen this happen before...someone has a skill, they decide to turn that skill into a business, and quickly find out that it's not as easy and awesome as they thought it would be. I've even done it myself, and it didn't go well.

    I suggest that instead of jumping in cold and exposing yourself to what might be serious financial as well as legal liabilities, go work at an already established gun shop and treat it as vocational training. There you can learn what permits and credentials are needed, how to fill out the forms, how the process works, etc. The experience might make you decide that going solo is not worth the hassle. Or, it might be inspiring and reveal a real talent for the business you didn't know you had. Either way, it's a low risk path.

    Hardly anyone who starts a business with no prior experience in that field is ultimately successful, even if they are technically skilled.
    GOG likes this.
  15. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Which they did this summer. to Firearms Manufacturers (Publish).pdf
  16. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    I'm betting that even experienced gunsmiths are not aware of this summers changes. Actually I know a number that are not and are now Pi$$ed off. Following the AFT guidelines still exposes them to ITAR regs that they were not aware of.

    Probably better to stay on the sales side of things and avoid the state department.

    I think I'll pay the annual SOT of 200 dollars so I can sell silencers also .. well maybe we can get silencers off the NFA and can sell them freely as an accessory!
  17. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    I did not know this had taken place.
    I think I understand this game, its called regulate (fill in the blank) until there is so much red tape and regulation it falls off the face of the earth, problem is that is the only thing this administration knows how to do and they do it well.
    Every department or agency takes a bite of 2A until it's impossible to do anything and/or there is nothing left.

    Then if they didn't send out an information packet or something to ffl holders then they want to just go out and cause trouble with people who did not know the regulations changed.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  18. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Yep, multiple departments and the statement 'Ignorance of the law is not a viable defense'. Pass so many regulations that no one can escape being a criminal is how you keep everyone in check.
    Yard Dart likes this.
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