Solar solution for deep well request

Discussion in 'Off Grid Living' started by Equilibrium, Jan 9, 2011.


  1. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    "I asked her to go look on the back of a panel and get the VmP figure, so far she has missed that request. ( hint hint )" Really sorry.... I wasn't ignoring you. I don't have them yet. They won't be picked up until this weekend. My husband needs to get our trailer back from somebody who borrowed it so we can go get them and he works during the week and on most Saturdays.

    "unless you are watering a farm, you don't need a 1 1/4hp pump" Well... how about a few chickens and a goat on the way.... and a greenhouse.... and raised veggie beds... and (egads) a teenager that showers at least twice a day.....do those count....just kidding but I did buy a goat that'll be delivered to me this spring.... I suppose she'll get stolen too unless I bolt her down. I do truly see the reasoning behind your recommendation to replace the existing pump however.... there's one major stumbling block I see.... we have to hire "approved" contractors. We can only use contractors that are on the county health department's "approved contractor" list. Isn't that special> I'd need to submit a complete drawing of what I want to do stamped by an "approved" PE before access to my well would be even considered. Swapping out a pump requires "decontamination" of the well which is a service their "approved contractors" just happen to provide... for a fee. Total cost of around $1,400 to swap out a pump not including the cost of the new pump. And the process would have to be reversed when we sold which would cost us another $1,400. I'm afraid they've got me coming and going if I touch the well pump and I was thinking the $2,800 would be better in my pocket in the form of a quality system than in somebody else's pocket. I got to thinking again... and I do realize that's been dangerous for me lately.... it might be better to take action then wait and ask for forgiveness later. They take aerial photos at regular intervals to make sure they don't miss an opportunity taxing homeowners for "improvements" and "betterments"/"additions" and "alterations" and also to ensure the hydrology of the wetlands isn't "compromised". Wetlands do provide ecosystem services and their integrity can't be compromised. If the system doesn't involve accessing the well and isn't permanent per se.... just like a chicken coop on skids that's under 100 sq feet... they shouldn't be able to increase our property taxes and I'm crossing my fingers and toes hoping the worst that can happen is I'm stuck standing in front of the board bobbing my head blondly back and forth begging for mercy and forgiveness. They'll whisper back and forth a bit to humiliate and degrade me then instruct me to return the following month to provide them with time to mull over my indiscretions. Next month they call me to stand before them and my community "peers" to verbally make an example of me then quietly send out their inspector with his tape measure for no charge to look at what atrocities I've committed. He'll disarmingly ask me how much all "this" cost and I'll provide him with receipts and boast about my great bargains from Craigslist. A week later like clockwork.... I should be sent a bill for the $100 permit fee along with a very stern warning from the attorney du jour not to do it again. A week after that I will receive a visit from my community's "stakeholder"..... the county tax assessor. He's a delightful fellow. If I am able to be upbeat and positive and bubbling at the mouth enthusiasticly sharing with him how wonderful MY system is compared to everyone else's because mine isn't permanent and can be moved to a new location.... just like the chicken coop.... I will not receive another increase in my property taxes. Hence the reasoning behind why I would love to put those panels on the roof where they would be safe but I thought they better go on a ground mount that can be inserted into a sleeve set in a concrete pad with footings. I think the most they can get me for would be the $500 concrete pad. See Mr. Inspector Wonderful.... lookie how my mount just slips in and out of this here sleeve.... isn't that wonderful.... don't you think that's ingenious how my friends helped me do this so we could pack up and take everything with us to the next house.... why you could do the same thing yourself sir. Would you like some nice cold Arizona sweet tea sir.... you look you've been run ragged before getting here. He is a human you know.... he's just doing his job trying to keep a roof over his family's head like everyone else.

    TnAndy.... your idea was wonderfully sound from a logical standpoint and also from working within our financial limitations. The sad reality is that if I touch that well without playing by our health department's rules.... I'm toast. If I touch it and play by their rules.... I'm out 2.8k with nothing to show for it. I'm sitting on a jewel I'm told.... wetlands... and my county embraced the challenges of managing watersheds seriously.... so much so that jurisdiction over them no longer rests with the Army Corps of Engineers (the Core's a pleasure and quite reasonable to work with BTW) but with.... drum roll please....our County Health Department's Watershed Mgt "team". I'm too tired and thread bare to risk that route to be honest with you.
     
  2. TnAndy

    TnAndy Senior Member Founding Member

    Wow......we do our own around here. Neighbor and I rigged up a boom to go on his Bobcat, and with a winch, we can pull down to 600' with no problem. Decontamination consists of dump a couple gallons of bleach down the hole after it's done.
     
  3. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Tnandy, that is the difference between living, "In amongst them" and living "out away from them"... Way to many nosey County or Borough, as the case may be, paid busybodies feeding off the Government Teats...
     
  4. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    TnAndy>"Wow......we do our own around here." Braggart.... and you seemed like such a nice person. ;)

    "Decontamination consists of dump a couple gallons of bleach down the hole after it's done." Well fancy that.... you just described virtually the exact same decontamination process utilized by our "approved" contractors... only difference being our "approved contractors" only dump ONE gallon of bleach down the hole... and they use a generic to boot. I watched.
    BTPost> I guess we're sorta between the "In amongst them" and "out away from them" in that we live in a middle class suburb.

    No.... they're not nosy.... they're doing their jobs is all. Most of them.... with the exception of a "team" or two at the County Health Dept.... are literally just trying to keep their heads above water. Do it the county's way and don't ask any questions or risk being replaced by 20 well qualified people standing in line. All the cops we have/had are doing the same. They're all pretty decent folk. You did however describe the President of our HO Association. She probably made wonderful baked goods for the PTA and delivered them in person after kick starting her broom which evidently qualifies one for the position she holds. She bought a telescope.... all the better to see into the 18 yards of her kingdom. Yes.... that's all that's back here.... 19 homes. She has business cards she shares with those questioning her authority. She shared one with me once. I was going to hand it back to her but on second thought.... decided to accept it so I could show it to my husband. Seeing is believing and all. He cracked up laughing.... something I couldn't do when she presented it to me.

    Gentlemen> I think maybe we better go back to a materials list for plan b since I live in the state of sunshine and socialism for all.... IL. ;)
     
  5. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    The reason why I joined Survival Monkey was to... hopefully.... get help with a long term solar solution for my well. I actually followed another new member named Kingfish over here when he mentioned this site in reference to solar. I don't know him... he doesn't know me.... I merely read his posts and followed the link and liked what I found. That being said.... I think...not positive.... there might be issues with the type and size of inverter. Yesterday my husband had a chance to sit down and look over what I'd come up with. He, like me, is certainly no expert by any means and he's a good 30 years removed from the engineering design process while I'm from an entirely different discipline but.... he said Ohm's Law should apply. He said in looking at the specs he thinks the Purchasing 2 inverters would barely make enough amperage.

    This is what he's thinking however he asked that those trying to help me consider the source.... a structural engineer with no solar experience.
     
  6. TnAndy

    TnAndy Senior Member Founding Member

  7. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    Thank you TnAndy. Big Uh Oh.... 3600/120=30.... he's right, "The range of the starting amp draw is anywhere from 40 - 62.3 amps (or 5-7 times the S.F. load). And from your link, "Most well pumps require 230 VAC. Either two stacked inverters, or an inverter with 230V output, or a transformer must be used. (The Trace T-240 transformer will handle 2 HP max.)." Back to the drawing board for us... we can't touch the pump and it does require 230 VAC.
     
  8. TnAndy

    TnAndy Senior Member Founding Member

    Many inverters will handle that starting load. The 2500w Outback, for example, is rated for 70amps surge.....which all all your pump starting load is....a very short surge....like a fraction of a second.

    The full load running amperage is what you also need to look at.

    An FX2524 ( 2500w, 24vDC input ) has a 20.8 continuous output on 120vAC....or 10.4 on 240v. That would do you, assuming no other loads when the pump is running.

    The FX3624 is 29.2 on 120v, or 14+ when stepped up to 240v.
     
  9. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    I've been poking around a little bit more and just stumbled on something else interesting.... there's evidently some sort of a recall on Xantrex inverters which is going to compromise the ability of little folk like us who would need to tap into their technical support and service. It appears it's a pretty big recall. I'm thinking it's a good idea ditching the Xantrex brand of inverter for us. I'm sure they'll right themselves but looks like they're going to be inundated for a while as a result of the recall.
    Thank you so much for this, "The full load running amperage is what you also need to look at" and the 2500W Outback suggestion. I'll check into it hopefully tomorrow or at the very latest next weekend when my husband has time. I've got a friend I can see driving up whose coming to "play" with me dehydrating turkey today and well.... there's a few loads of laundry downstairs with my name on it and dogs doing the pee dance.
     
  10. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

  11. Nadja

    Nadja RIP 3-11-2013 Forum Leader


    What most of my neighbors here do , is simply employ a back up generator that runs on propane, and then to put in a large propane tank to run only the gennie from. If you pump once a week for about an hour, a 500 gal tank would last you about 10 years filling your above ground tank etc.
     
  12. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    That's a really good idea... that unfortunately I wouldn't be able to get approved. We're still under the watchful eye of our HOA that doesn't allow silly things like fences (they obstruct views) and clothes lines or parked RV's and above ground propane tanks are going to fall under her "eyesore" catchall for anything not specifically listed in the bylaws since we've all got natural gas. What do you think of that inverter I found?
     
  13. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    I am most appreciative of the member who offered to send me a Xantrex C60 for free out of the goodness of his heart. Admittedly, I was shocked because the offer was sincere.
    I am also appreciative of the member who offered me solar panels at a discounted price.
    --
    What would be most useful to me, since it has been determined there are "issues" with the type and size of inverter originally chosen, would be an expert opinion on this Magnum inverter for my particular situation.
    What say the experts on this Magnum inverter, Magnum MS-4448PAE 48 VDC 4400-watt 48VDC to 120/240VAC sinewave Inverter, with an Outback FM60 controller, OutBack Power Flex Max 80 MPPT solar power charge controller? I suspect they'll come down in pricing by next year. I'm sitting on a stack of solar panels that are bought and paid for.
     
  14. Nadja

    Nadja RIP 3-11-2013 Forum Leader

    You could also buy the same generators to run on natural gas. All it takes is a simple orffice change to order it that way.
     
  15. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    I second Nadjas thinking... If you already have NG, then your fuel source is in place already... You will lose a bit of Generating Power Off the top, because NG has less BTU's than Propane, OR Gasoline, but if you choose the right generator, this isn't an issue. There are lots of units that either are NG ready, or can be converted to Trifuel, (Gas, LP, NG) for not much expense. If you get interested in doing something like that I can steer you to where some VERY Talented folks, who do this for a living, hang out... Just PM "Me"...
     
  16. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    I found out we own some sort of a small Coleman generator. I have no problems purchasing a conversion kit for it if one's available. I don't know what model it is so later on this week I'll run out to the shed with my shovel and clear away the drifts from the door. I know the generator is in there so I can take a photo of it and then you guys can tell me what you think.

    --
    ColtCarbine said this in another thread,
    I tend to agree with him and especially since our gas has been cut off twice in the last 5 years and that wasn't for not paying our bill by accident since we're on automatic draft. We never did find out why it came to be that our entire neighborhood ended up having no gas. Granted.... we lose gas a lot less than we lose electricity around here but it has still happened which makes me somewhat uncomfortable.
    --
    I'd very much be appreciative if someone would share their opinion of that Magnum inverter with the FM60 controller please. I've decided this is the direction I need to go for our well pump. Everyone is probably 100% on the money about the generators being the best route but.... I feel a strong need to follow through on the solar solution.
     
  17. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    Here's the generator we have and I can't really get at it to pull it out and get serial numbers or anything but I looked at it through the stairs and saw the words, "Pulse 1000" on the side. I could see where it said Power Master or maybe it was Power Mate on the side and maybe the word gasoline. Strange.... I thought the little generator we had was bigger and red and had like a black metal frame or something around it. Anywho... this is what we have and it doesn't look like it's anything worth buying a conversion kit for.
    --
    Still totally in need of input on the Magnum inverter.

    adding- the inverter is the green thing smack dab in the middle of the photo behind the wheel of a quad.
    Coleman Pulse 1000 gasoline.
     
  18. Nadja

    Nadja RIP 3-11-2013 Forum Leader

    I like most people, know very little about the magnum inverter's. Sorry, but most of us true solar people stick to the well knowns and time tested to run our houses and wells. Everyone around me within miles and miles living on solar, run gennies for the wells, and some are equipped to also run them on their solar systems. I large 24 volt xantrax or outback with a step up transformer wired into it, will start just about any well around here which all average from 400 - 450 feet. As TNAndy said, your starting surge is only for a second or two, and they seem well able to handle your starting load. The trick there is to stop all other power going out for the duration of the well running.
     
  19. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Nice Honda 4X4 in that Picture as well....
     
  20. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Monkey++

    Ohhh... there's that word everyone!!! Oh horrors.... you're reducing me to "nobody" status. (giggle) I guess I'm gonna be at risk of never achieving true solar person status for my well pump. I read some reviews before considering it and that brand may be newer to the single-family solar "scene" but they've been around for 70 years, Magnum Energy Inc.. Their original market was boats then RVs but evidently they've been slowly but surely expanding their market. The reason why I elevated them to "inverter candidate" statues is I went down to the docs and talked to a few people and this brand is numero uno for big boats... as in yachts and.... some of these big boats are bigger than whole houses complete with jet tubs and full size sub zero freezers. I've gone online and searched for Magnum + inverter + problem and they're actually holding up pretty well in their existing "niche" market and definitely holding up well in the "recall" department against the more popular single-family residential brands. I've contacted the manufacturer for specs and asked them to provide me with the names of a few local distributors. Not that I'll be able to read the specs but.... I'm pretty sure I can find some folk who can. I'm seriously leaning toward this Magnum.... it can handle the surge of our pump that requires 230 VAC without a step up transformer that would double the voltage while halving the amperage. I think the Magnum inverter might actually be the better long-term/non petroleum dependent solution because they haven't been "investing" in the "marketing" to "true solar" people that their competitors have been doing. All "marketing" is ultimately paid for by.... consumers. You guys may be 100% on the money and I may be totally wrong but.... I'm seriously thinking of just going for it when I've got the chance unless anyone can provide me with something more substantive than "everybody" uses the two most popular brands. I'm just not finding buyers whining incessantly about this brand and it doesn't have the recall issues the more popular brands have. Customer support is supposedly superior and they do something the other brands charge an arm and a leg for.... sellers provide wiring diagrams for no charge to perspective buyers.
    --
    BTPost> I think those are Honda quads except for one blue racing quad smashed in that shed. The red ones have served us well.... they last for ever!!! The blue one is pretty beat but that's the one the kids used to screw around on. The red ones are more utilitarian as opposed to "for fun" as in joy riding though. Speaking of "red" things.... my husband just got home and I asked him about the little Coleman generator being green and not the red I remembered. Blow me away.... we have two generators. A green Coleman and a red Honda!!! The really little green one I found in the shed is for camping. We have a red generator in the garage somewhere still in the box sorta like I described for the house so please hit me up with what I need to to "convert" it for propane use. He said it's a Honda EM3800. He bought it last year after we lost power... again. He tired of listening to me moan about.... having to pass out the contents of my deep freeze and side by side refrigerator/freezer. I'm pretty sure this generator will handle the well pump as a temporary solution for short term power outages.... at least long enough for us to be the beneficiaries of what's in them and definitely it should be able to buy us enough time for me to start dehydrating some of the contents too.
     
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