something from nothing

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by CATO, Jun 25, 2012.


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  1. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    ...not trying to start a fight.

    I read this and thought I would share. This doesn't help my search at all...I cannot grasp my head around the possibility of nothing, and then ...what we know as space.

    The Big Bang didn't need God to start universe, researchers say | Fox News

    It also begs the question "what created the laws of physics" if there was nothing before.

    I do not grok "nothing."
     
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    There was a pre-existing singularity, it's not from nothing. Before then awaits theory that hasn't be proposed yet.
     
  3. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    The laws of physics are human conventions

    The laws of physics are human conventions used to explain and describe the natural world.

    The question
    may be answered by responding: humanity, using the scientific method of observation and experimentation created the ‘laws of physics’.

    The universe consists of physical characteristics that can be observed, quantified, measured, described, categorised, etc, etc in systematic ways to produce data that can be analysed and from which hypotheses and theories can be formulated to explain the phenomena observed, and enable predictions that can be made about the physical properties and characteristics of the universe. Where physical properties of the universe can be observed as acting in reliably consistent ways, the predictive behaviour of such physical properties can be described in terms of acting in accordance with the laws of physics, which are, in essence, conventions devised by scientists to describe what those physical properties and behaviours are.

    How the physical properties of the universe came to be what they are, and why they act in predictable ways as described in terms of laws of physics is altogether another question. For many theists, the pat answer is that Goddidit, and the creation myths of their sacred scriptures, describes how and when that was done. For many non theists, it's a matter of examining the evidence, based on empirical observation and experiment, and drawing conclusions from scientifically derived data to describe and explain how the natural world came to be and how it works.
     
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  4. BTPost

    BTPost Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    What do "Researchers" know, in contrast to the expanse of the Universe?..... I mean .... Duh.......

    The best they can do, is a very unEducated Guess......
     
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  5. Redneck Rebel

    Redneck Rebel Monkey++

    I gave up pondering such immense puzzles.
    I can't even wrap my head around the stupidity of my fellow Americans, our elected officials, or how our perfect government has deteriorated to its current state...
     
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  6. ColtCarbine

    ColtCarbine Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Perhaps the scientific community should be getting an edumacation from .gov as they are experts at creating something from nothing.
     
    Redneck Rebel likes this.
  7. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Nahhh...the scientific community knows that you CANNOT divide by ZERO. :sneaky:
     
  8. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    I guess it all depends upon the methodologies and technologies used by "Researchers" to elicit from the evidence collected what knowledge they might discover about the universe.

    I doubt that it was a collection of "unEducated Guess(es)" that enabled mankind to set foot upon the Moon, land scientific instrumentation on Venus and Mars, and send probes to the outer reaches of our solar system. This was achieved using the scientific method of discovery, examining the material universe. Our knowledge of the Universe is steadily increasing with advances in technology and science...will we have the answers to ultimate questions of existence...that is an open question at this stage, but the odds of it being achieved may be quite minimal if it were left to Bronze and Iron Ages mythology and theology.

    If it were left to the methodologies used by the Institute For Creation Research...there would be no need to go beyond the New and Old Testaments for all the answers to the origins of the Universe and Life on Earth.
     
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  9. wrc223

    wrc223 Monkey+

    So only people who do not believe make advances in physics and technology?
     
  10. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Advances in physics and technology are generally made by those who use the scientific method to take our knowledge of the material world forward, regardless of whether they believe, disbelieve or have no belief in pink unicorns, celestial teapots, faeries or gods.

    Methods other than the systematic scientific collection and analysis of data have generally been much less successful in understanding how the material universe works. Do astronomers and cosmologists use the predictive powers of astrology to learn about the universe? Do chemists apply the principles of the alchemic transmutation of base elements into noble elements in their research? Do petroleum corporation geologists use the research findings of the Institute For Creation Research to guide their surveys and exploration? Probably not very many.

    If I am in urgent need of medical attention, I think that I would much prefer a competent physician or surgeon versed in western scientically validated medical knowledge, practices and procedures than relying on a faith healer, intercessory prayer or voodoo magic.
     
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  11. wrc223

    wrc223 Monkey+

    I dont think I have been offensive towards you. So if you could please not equate the God I, and others on here, pray to like "pink unicorns, celestial teapots, faeries or gods" that would really be a big boost for my morale. I have not spoken poorly to, critisize, try to convert non-believers, or pushed my faith in any way to you or anyone else out of respect for your opinion and choice that is your right to make. Do the same for the rest of us.

    My Sister graduated from Cornell University with a masters in Biology. Her current work involes R&D for a pharmaceutical research firm. The team she is on has released three drugs that have shown exceptionally positive results in the treatment of Cancer. Guess what......every Sunday she is at Church.

    I have been in EMS for 18 years. I have quite a scrapbook of thank you cards and pictures of me with people that I helped save through providing superior prehospital medical care utilizing validated medical knowledge, practices, and procedures........oh yeah, and some PRAYER.

    Edit: Sorry, had to run....smoke condition in a residence. Outlet burned out. No extention, smoke vented via fan, circuit turned off at panel and red taped. Homeowner to call electrician to diagnose/fix problem. All units 10-8.

    I cant begin to tell you how many times I have prayed while spending 45+ minutes performing chest compressions or while pushing a medication.
    I remember one time I had a 15 y/o F with severe asthma. By the time we got on scene she had already max dosed on inhalers and her home albuterol set up. I went through the drug bag on this kid. Lets just say I was all the way down to Solu-medrol (pretty far down in our bag of tricks). I remember giving the loading dose and was hanging the drip when I started to pray. I asked that this either work or let her lose consiousness so I could get an airway and bag her (she was worn out and needed to breathe)......she was exhausted and we were still 20-30 minutes from the hospital. Within about 10 minutes that seemed like 2 days she started to move air. Color started to improve and spO2 was above 90% for the first time since we met.
    Now, I will in no way sit here and try to tell you or anyone else that God reached into that ambuance and saved that little girl, that would be stupid. What God DID do is put MY A** in that ambulance and gave me strength and focus I needed to take care of that kid and get her to the hospital in better shape than when I got to her. If her parents tried to drive her the distance to the hospital, she would have very certainly died.
     
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  12. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    @wrc223

    I'm sorry that I have not replied to your post sooner, but I have been distracted by other projects. Your post raises a number of interesting points, which I feel merit a reply. I note that you haven't visited SM for some time, but my reply is here and waiting for you.


    Notes:

    1. I didn't take your post (#9)as offensive or as attacking me personally...I made no claim that believers had made no contribution to advances in science and technology, so your post is somewhat redundant.


    2. You will note that I referred to small 'g' god or gods generically rather than (a) specific big 'G' God(s). Not knowing which particular God(s) you or other members of this site believe, it is unreasonable to characterise my comments in earlier posts in this thread as offending your particular God(s)or your belief in a particular God(s). The equivalence that each category of supernatural entity (pink unicorns, celestial teapots, faeries and gods) have in common is that they are all non falsifiable; and as such they are not accessible to investigation by the scientific method. The existence of pink unicorns, celestial teapots, faeries and gods are matters of metaphysical speculation rather than scientific investigation. That is not to say that some scientific claims made by supernaturalists about their supernatural entities cannot be tested empirically.



    3. That seems to be the case. I respect others' rights to believe what they will, and so long as what is believed in neither picks my pocket nor harms me (to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson), I generally don't have much interest in what folks believe. I do reserve the right however to challenge claims based on those beliefs where they are disputable. I do not dispute the right for people to hold to silly or erronious ideas, but the ideas themselves have no rights of immunity to critical examination. As such, in the marketplace of ideas in a secular, democratic pluralist society, it is almost an obligation to hold ideas (good and bad) to skeptical scrutiny to evaluate their merit, and the worth of their support or opposition.



    4. I'm not so certain that in the realm of beliefs, at least as far as faith and religion is concerned, that a live and let live kind of self censorship is actually a healthy thing when examining theistic and atheistic claims critically. Many of my posts are vigorously challenged by theists, and I welcome it. Theistic apologetics ought not be immune to skeptical, athesistic, counter apologetics, and vice versa.



    5. As interesting as your Sister's achievements are, your observation that she also goes to church is a non sequiteur. I have no position on your Sister's piety, but people do go to church for a variety of reasons having nothing to do with their worship of the diety that the church represents. It may well be that your Sister has a high tolerance for cognitive dissonance, or that She compartmentalises those different aspects of her life that may potentially be in conflict...that is to say, when she is doing her pharmaceutical research she is employing the scientific method, but leaves scientific skepticism with her lab coat when she enters the church portal.



    6. I have no reason to doubt your competence, nor the satisfaction that your service has garnered from patients, their friends and families. If you feel that prayer helps you to be a more effective EMS then I don't gainsay your doing so, even if it ain't my thang.



    7. It is a claim that many theists are quite happy to make, particularly those with faith healing inclinations.



    8. I think that God may be getting a little too much credit for your contribution in saving the little girl's life. The impression given is that God is like some kind of Wizard of OZ, intervening and manipulating the material world to achieve very specific results. You sell yourself and your antecedents short by not recognising your exercise of "free will", your training, the medical technology at your disposal, your personal commitment to a life saving ethic, the employer who gives you the license to do work that inspires you, and the dispatcher who sent you to that particular job. God often gets lots of credit for the lives saved....but, lives lost are most likely attributed, at least by some theists, to the work of Satan...not God's indifference, or utter absence.



    9. See my comment #6



    10. Maybe so, not knowing the exact circumstances, I am in no position to contradict you. It has to be said though, that some parents' belief in God, and in their God's grace to heal by faith, that many children die of eminently treatable medical conditions, simply because the parents refuse to take their child to a doctor or call 911. Evidently God doesn't seem to want to spoil good prayers by calling 911 himself to ensure that an EMS gets his A** into an ambulance to save the faith healing family's vulnerable child's life.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
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  13. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Bored tonight Chell. Here you are trolling the F&R forum and resurrecting 6 month old threads just so you can spout more of your anti God, anti religion sputem. Same old song and dance, only ignorant people believe in God, and unicorns, If you were as smart as me you would agree with me. Blah, blah, blah same old horseshit. I could once again as in another thread refute your narcissistic supposed logic with a plethora of distinguished scientists, PHD's, doctors, reasearchers, some of the greatest minds of science who believed in the existence of God. People a whole lot more intelligent than some narcissist, forum troll with a thesaurus.
    I have warned you about trolling this forum with the sole intent to inflame passions and besmirch those who come here to discuss faith and religion, neither of which you have. So why do you come here?

    You are very close to violating CoC rule#1. No personal attacks or insults. No posts whose intent is to inflame or otherwise provoke anger from another member (Flaming).
    And #2. No posting of racial, sexual, political or religious slurs. Civil debate on these issues is accepted. Malicious comments on or about them is not.


    And just so we don't have to be subjected to your self righteous "I was only responding to a post", unfair, afraid of debate, yada.yada.yada, diatribe I am locking this thread. I have warned you before about trolling this forum and stirring up strife. If you continue I will start deleting every post you make in here. If you don't like it take it to the admins.

    And @wrc223 I apologize for being lax in moderating this forum and keeping the trolls at bay. I will be more diligent in the future.
     
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