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Stove Pipes and Other stupid stuff.

Discussion in 'Back to Basics' started by Thunder5Ranch, Dec 20, 2017.


  1. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    Was helping someone out today that bought a portable building and is converting it into a cabin and about stroked out when I saw how he had installed his wood stove pipe. A 6" diameter hole cut in the wall for a 6" diameter pipe! And the pipe stuck through the hole (Single Wall Pipe). The area above the hole was black and charred. Just had not got quite hot enough to ignite.......... yet. I had a triple wall, wall pill behind the seat of my truck and a sabre saw and we spend the next hour cutting more of his wall out and installing the insulated triple wall pill.

    I realize most of the regulars here know better. This is the 3rd time in the last year I have seen single wall black pipe ran straight through walls of portable building cabins. So obviously a good number of people do not understand how hot that pipe gets when in full burn. The only thing that saved the three cabins from burning down, is that the outer wall panels are treated and somewhat fire resistant.

    Seriously folks if you DO NOT know what you are doing, enlist help or hire someone who does! This mistake at worst could be fatal and at best cost you everything in the building.

    They make great cabins, I love my 16x46 lofted and just bought another one to move in beside it 12' apart and am going to build a 12' 40' addition between the two buildings and all told between my sawmill and DIY (Experienced DIY) I will have a hair short of $40,000 into 1952 sq feet of house. They are durable, low maint, buildings that in my case (I bought repos) were $7,900 and $8,200. For the shells. So very affordable with new ones coming in around $10,000-$12,000. A lot of folks around the Nation are seeing these as affordable alternative housing. Particularly those buying a couple of acres for a homestead. A lot of City folk at least in this area are buying these and moving out of town and bringing a lot of dangerous bad ideas with them.......... Like running single wall stove pipes straight through the wall. Reading a book and believing they are master electricians... Been a couple burn locally from bad wiring jobs done by the owner. Folks trying to over winter in them with no roof and wall insulation and no inner walls. Running water lines under the building and wondering why they froze solid and busted the first 20 degree night. Not drilling down and putting footers below the frost line for the blocks to sit on and then wondering why their home is at a 30 degree angle after a few good rains. Using cinder blocks hole side out instead of hole side out. I wouldn't use cinder blocks other and non weight bearing, seal the bottom up. Solid concrete deck supports cost a bit more but don't crack and crush under the weight of a 23,000 pound shell.

    While many of us just take these things as common knowledge or Common sense. A whole lot of folks wanting to be self sufficient, that have no experience or frame of reference for things like this....... fall in the ignorant category and it can cause loss of life or investment. The books and stories make it all sound plug and play easy, which it is if you have a good hands on education in carpentry, plumbing, Electrical, wood stove installation, foundation setting and think in terms of what can go wrong with that thinking based in experienced common sense.

    BUT NO MATTER WHAT STRUCTURE YOU HAVE>>>>>>>>>>> DO NOT PUT A SINGLE WALL PIPE STRAIGHT THROUGH A WALL<<<<<<<<<<
     
  2. SB21

    SB21 Monkey+++

    Good advice.
    The only problem with your advice is , the ones that don't know what they're doing , don't know they don't know what they're doing.
     
  3. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    What a lot of folk don't know is, much like an antenna is 1/2 the radio; so the stove pipe is half the stove.
    Some throw away so much heat, piping so close to the exit they sacrifice a great portion of the stove's efficiency.
    Some rely on the damper on the stove "if any" rather than having a damper on the pipe (first section of pipe off the stove) .
    All my installations include a dog leg in the pipe rather than going strait up ,I want to get the most out of my wood ,not throw it away.
    I think the problem with newbees is , they try and go on the cheap, and for the sake of haste and $ they cut corners, most stuff I buy comes with instructions and safety issues are usually at the fore front of the instructions. And if you cant put brick or some other heat resistant material between the stove and the wall at least use aluminum sheet metal ( supported slightly(air space) from the wall) there to both protect the wall and reflect the heat into the room .
     
    Thunder5Ranch and Gator 45/70 like this.
  4. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    Here's a good question... it's good because I don't know the answer!
    Does double wall and or triple wall stove pipe come with (come with=do they make) fittings so you can blow inside air from the top most accessible point to the bottom for heat recovery, or does this screw with the tar buildup.

    Rancher
     
    sec_monkey and Thunder5Ranch like this.
  5. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Just because I've never seen it does NOT mean such fittings do not exist. You are thinking more heat recovery?

    The key to creosote control is stack temp. Once the stack is up to (about) 350 top to bottom (depending on fuel wood) creosote won't condense on the surfaces exposed to smoke. Methinks if you can find a way that the thimble temp does not drop below 350ish, the scheme has merit.


    Gratuitous comment on the off chance a reader is unaware: Stopping and starting wood stoves creates the greatest creosote danger.
     
  6. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Are we talking about a heat ex changer that one could run water thru to heat up the water?
     
    sec_monkey likes this.
  7. Thunder5Ranch

    Thunder5Ranch Monkey+++

    Interesting question AZ that I also don't know the answer to. I don't think keeping the thimble/wall pill temp above 350 would be a problem once the burn is going would be a problem but if you start sucking or blowing the heat out, it could be a problem.

    That is what I hate about falls like the one we just had 2 cold days followed by three warm days, and warm days with cold nights. Constant starting and burning out of the fires and the creosote build up in the pipe. My old 8" heavy steel pipe, that I need to pull off the mobile home and out of the ground and move to the cabin it was not a big deal. I would just do a really hot burn with cedar and intentionally ignite the creosote in the pipe. This thin black stove pipe I am using atm until I get the motivation to move the monster pipe.... Yeah I don't think I would trust it to hold up to the creosote burning temps. Have a video of a creosote burn on my old computer I need to pull off. Shows a good 10 foot long flame coming out of the pipe and lots of black granular ash raining down during the creosote burn. Would not do that without a steel roof and nothing that would burn for a good radius around the pipe :) Also a good idea to have a T with a opening on the bottom where the pipe goes up for solids and goo to drop down into a metal bucket.

    Much truth in that statement, going cheap on critical systems BAD, going cheap on cosmetic stuff....... who cares LOL, ugly ain't gonna kill you ;) Big corner I see cut in the wood burning arena is cutting and splitting the wood in October and then starting to burn it in November. No understanding of seasoning the firewood. They make a lot of smoke, a lot of creosote build up and not much heat :(
     
    Gator 45/70 and sec_monkey like this.
  8. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    Never seen a Stove Pipe that allows Air to be Pumped between the outside and Inside Pipes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist... I have built Coils of Copper Tubing that mount inside 6" Single Wall Stove Pipes, for heating Domestic Water.... I usually build them in the First Section just above the Stove, and Lower than the Flue Damper... I found that four Coils of 1/2 Copper Pipe works very well for this... especially in a Thermal-Syphon setup, that requires NO Electricity... In the Northern Tool Catalog there was a Product called "The Heatalator" that fit in a 6" Stove Pipe, and allowed an integral Fan to extract Heat from the Flue Gasses and blow it into the Internal Air in the Room. As Ghrit pointed out, this will work as long as the Stack Temp thru the Unit stays above say 350F... Otherwise I would think it would eventually form a Creosote Plug, in the Stack, and could cause a Stack Fire.... Saw a Two Story Cabin, with a Basement, that had a Vertical Stove Pipe, with the Stove in the Basement, and a Heatalator on each of the Floors above... Seemed to work for the Owner, but I haven't followed up to see how it has run in the Long Term...
     
    Gator 45/70, sec_monkey and Dont like this.
  9. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    As a practice I expect to do chimney cleaning seasonally ,depending on the wood's i'm burning.
    Softer woods yield more creosote not burning hot enough initially in the fire box.
    I mix my woods during the burn hard and soft and this usually keeps the build up to a minimum .
    If all I have is soft wood, then I expect to have to clean more often. hence the damper on the stove pipe to keep the heat high enough to burn thoroughly . I also have a heat powered fan blowing past the pipe to circulate the air.
    As for the pipe passing through the ceiling/roof there are two ,one inside the other.
    With the damper and my method of burning, the pipe doesn't get very hot up there.
     
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  10. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    The double wall I have is filled with insulation between the walls, and the ends have no provision for airflow between sections. I did a bunch of shopping before I made the purchase and didn't see any that meets your description, but I wasn't specifically looking for it, either.
    If you did find some, I would suspect it would affect creosote build up and create draft issues, as the stack needs to warm up internally.
     
  11. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    For the coal furnace I'm doing at least the last 3' inside the roof as insulated double wall pipe and I have fire rated construction foam to fill the gap around pipe and the roof. Then it' going up at least 4' above the highest point of roof with in the nearest 10 feet of the pipe. I think recommend is 2 or 3 foot above the nearest high point.
     
  12. azrancher

    azrancher Monkey +++

    Yes I was thinking out loud, seems a lot of my heat from my fireplace goes up the chimney, it's a square 10" duct, with masonry walls around it with dead air space, except for the portion between the vaulted ceiling (12') and the roof (~15'), which is fiberglass inside the masonry. My pellet furnace goes up the same chimney, but it's double walled 4" flue.
    Rancher
     
  13. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Worked on a post for 3/4 hr & I got forbidden & then after a copy so I didn't loose my work , it was toast .
    AZ Yes & Yes , Look it up , I run one !!

    Dang Win7 is crap . XP rules !! IN Gates crap

    Sloth
     
    Ganado likes this.
  14. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Don't worry, sloth, be happy. Be VERY happy you aren't running Vista or W10. (Have to admit that XP was good to me.)
     
  15. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    The rule where i come from is 2-10
    in other words measuring horizontally 10' away the stack needs to be 2' higher.

    I still maintain that having a damper and a dog leg in the pipe above the stove will yield you more heat and less heat loss up the chimney.
     
    Gator 45/70 and ghrit like this.
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