Surveillance without your knowledge - the "black box" in your car

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by CATO, Apr 19, 2015.

  1. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    For those of you with newer vehicles--the ones that an EMP will fry like an egg, you probably didn't know that you have a little stow-away that keeps track of you. Now, the article say things like "when you slam on the brakes" or "when the airbags deploy." But, some newer cars are boasting that they are actual moving hot-spots. You get in your car and your phone/tablet will basically have Wi-Fi access.

    [tf] Tinfoil hat theory [tf]
    Now, given you didn't choose to have this little black-box stowaway installed like you did for your leather seats, I don't see it as too far of a stretch for this same information to be expanded to collect such attributes as GPS, speed, voice keywords, etc. not just when there's an accident, but, at all times without your knowledge when the infrastructure is set up that *most* cars are connected to the Interweb.

    (No need to thump your chest to tell us what a visionary you are to be driving a mid-70's Powerwagon--we've read the Rawles too.[cmfrt] This post is a PSA for those that don't know.)
    Find out if your car is being tracked | Page 2 |

    Harris Technical has compiled a list stretching back to 1994 so you can find out at a glance. It's got just about every make and model of car you can imagine made during 1994 through 2014. The list is attached or here.

    Was your car on the list? If your car does have an EDR, you need to know a few things. For example, who would have the rights to look at the black box's data in the event of a crash? Car manufacturers want access because they want to know what's exactly going on with your car if it crashes. Insurance companies want the same thing, but they're also looking to figure out who's to blame if a car does happen to crash.

    So many people want to get their hands on your black box's data, in fact, that there are 15 states that have addressed who actually has the rights to your data. The rules and regulations vary on a state-by-state basis, but you can find a list of the states and their rules on this site.

    Want more information on the privacy pitfalls of EDRs? I wrote a whole tip about it here.

    Attached Files:

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  2. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    If I had such a vehicle, I WOULD climb under and CUT the Antenna Coax, OFF at the BlackBox. No Antenna, No Tracking, Off Car.... then if I got in a wreck, Law Enforcement can only get a Warrant, to download the Data from the BlackBox, manually, which I could fight in Court. Since I live where Vehicles are NOT on State or Federal Roads. I have vehicles that are ALWAYS older than '91, I do not have these issues....
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2015
    Mike likes this.
  3. Ganado

    Ganado Monkey+++

    Really great post Cato and great info.. Thank you :)
  4. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2015
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  5. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    @Brokor. No, actually, the PowerWagon I owned was. 1956 Dodge Panel Truck, with PowerWagon Running Gear, and a FlatHead Six. It was a Rural School Bus before I bought it, and had a PTO, 10K Lb Winch built-in to theI Beam Front Bumper. 4Speed Tranny w/Granny 1st Gear, Two Speed Transfer Case, and 4:88 Front Differential, w/PosiTraction & 4:89 Rear Differential, also w/PosiTraction. Manual Hubs on all Four Wheels......

    I bought it before I went to College, so pre '69 and long before Rawles ever showed up on the scene....
    GhettoPass and Mike like this.
  6. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    Holy Moly, @CATO !! Good heads up! I'm sure pushed by the insurance companies and backed by Auto Manufactures who don't want to pay insurance claims post accident, or warranty claims on major failures.

    That and your TV listening to you, your PC spying on you, and every other thing connected to the internet tracking everything you listen to or watch. Grocery stores offering that neat card that gives you $.03 a gallon off on gas that also tracks everything you buy, credit card companies selling your purchase information (ever wonder why you get those Thompson Cigar and Victoria's Secret catalogs?)
    Yard Dart and Mike like this.
  7. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    LOL! :lol:
  8. techsar

    techsar Monkey+++

    And keep in mind that the list includes vehicles with minimal recording along with omitting vehicles that cover nearly everything...just bear that in mind.

    None the less, a good reminder that "they" could be watching...
    Mike likes this.
  9. Matteo10572

    Matteo10572 Monkey+

    Doubting my 95 Bronco is a wifi hotspot. Didn't really even have much of an internet back then. Bet my wife's Volvo is really scared of my wife's driving though. Heheh
    Yard Dart, Tully Mars, Ganado and 2 others like this.
  10. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Info retrievable from sensors since 2001 on most euro cars , logging data from 2005 , 2009 to date , time ,position , speed, RTI/GPS location , till 2012/14 many now will link in with coffee shops etc that offer WiFi and send / retrieve their statics .The amount of depth that factory scanners with Admin privileges get to see is amazing .

    The list posted is not accurate in two car lines , since I have knowledge of this on Euro high end cars, Siemens /Bosch / VDO etc.
    Yard Dart likes this.
  11. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Hang on, I actually requested the Victoria's secret catalog!
  12. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Slowpoke...I requested the models[drooling]:rolleyes:
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  13. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    I noticed they did not list the Merced, but pretty sure it has one as well.........
  14. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Yes all top end euros ,& top end ford since they once owned Volvo for there advanced tech info . The rest I can't comment on but being in this tech field , I can say , Merc,Volvo,BMW,Audi Porch,and since Ive seen the ford platform P3 , them also.
    Not what I want in a car . not saying I want a model T , but I wnt to be able to adjust the defrost / radio / window all with keeping my eyes on the road and no BS distractions of (i'll type out all the acronyms) Blind spot indication , lane drifting warning , approach advancement collision avoidance and a bunch more , Constant bleaping of buzzers & blinking lights . F***,,, Learn how to drive & stay off your phone DRIVE!

    And if you didn't already know ,RED means STOP so if you see one on your dash , Think of the colour it is !!

    ghrit and Yard Dart like this.
  15. Byte

    Byte Monkey+++

    Uh I may be missing something but that list is compiled for vehicles with event data recorders. They only log data after a loggable event occurs, ie an accident. That's not positional tracking as in gps location. Though some of them may also include location data when an event is logged. For the older vehicles location tracking is less probable. Newer vehicles with OnStar, however, are definitely location trackable. Most definitely need to have a full spec sheet on the EDR in any vehicle you might have or are looking to purchase to determine which are capable of sending data and which cannot.

    Newer vehicles that offer wi-fi connectivity do present a tracking problem, however. They most assuredly have the ability to forward location data. If the day comes when I have to bite the bullet and acquire a newish automobile I will be doing my homework and will only purchase one that can be completely silenced.
  16. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    @Byte Any of these Vehicles can be "completely silenced" by Chopping off the Cellular Antenna, at the Block Box.... No Antenna, No Comms....
  17. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    True of any broadcast signal, but not RF chips, which will still reveal your passing any chip readers, such as I-pass.
  18. Byte

    Byte Monkey+++

    Yes for now that will work. Just speculating, but I am pretty sure that in the future manufacturers will attempt to require connection to their network or the vehicle will not operate at all. Won't be too hard for them to lobby that kind of legislation.

    kellory brings up a great point, RFID can be energized and read from an exterior source making moot any alterations we make to our own vehicles unless we are able to completely remove any RFID marker. And I still strongly believe that once the tech is fully fleshed out they will continue to use their administrative power to dictate how we travel in the future as they do in the present.
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
    kellory likes this.
  19. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    I fully expect license plates to be RF chipped. And it will be billed as "to assist law enforcement, by automatically running plates during a traffic stop. For greater officer safety, and accuracy in identification."
    Byte, ghrit and oldawg like this.
  20. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    No Manufacture can possibly REQUIRE that a vehicle be Tied into "Their Network" or even the Internet, in order to operate, PERIOD.... There are WAY to many places that do NOT have Cellular/PCS Coverage, or have Spotty Coverage,and that is the ONLY Terrestrial Network that even come close to those kind of Coverages. If that was REQUIRED, your vehicle would just STOP Running.... Giant Lawsuits would be placed, and Few of those vehicles would be Sold. This could ONLY be done with GeoSAT Comms Coverage, and even then, if a Solar Flare, happened, all the Vehicles in the Hemisphere would STOP.... That is just DUMB....

    As for RFID Chips, a simple Aluminum Foil Covering over the location of the Chip will stop it from receiving the ID Pulse from the Triggering Device, in which case No Response would be Generated. Also remember that these chips work at UHF and SHF Frequencies, and therefore a License Plate Reader would need a very wide Beam Pattern, which MAY trigger Multiple Chips on a busy Street, or Highway. How is the LEO supposed to decide which Answering chip belongs to the offending Vehicle, when Hundreds of IDs are coming in as other Vehicles are speeding by.... This has been a persistent Issue for Long Haul Truckers, when approaching Weigh Stations, that used Transponders to scan each Lane of Freeway Traffic. When trucks are side by side, across all lanes, and the Transponders are to high above the Freeway Road Bed, THE Beam covers into the next lane on each side... and they get multiple Hits from Multiple Transponders, simultaneously.... RF, at these frequencies, can be very confusing in these senerios, where Multiple Hits can occur, over a very short duration, and at High Rates.... The same issue happens with Radar Speed Guns, on very busy, High Traffic locations, and this was a big reason many CopShops went to Laser Guns, as the chances of getting a Multiple Hit are greatly reduced due to Tiny Dispersion rates, and Higher Accuracy, when Pointing to a single Target among many Targets, on the Roadway.
    ghrit and Yard Dart like this.
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