Sword as the third part of the weapons triangle .

Discussion in 'Blades' started by hank2222, May 16, 2018.


  1. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey



    Swords have a cool factor and are a balanced weapon (50% offense/50% defense), but other weapons can have a real advantage. At range an archer rules and just outside close quarters a spear or pike has the advantage. In close quarters an axe (100% offense) will overwhelm a sword most of the time. There is a great documentary on this that the History Channel made while they were still great but haven't been able to locate it yet on YT.

    I'd personally rate things this way:
    1. Rifle
    2. Pistol
    3. Knife
    4. Bow
    5. Spear
    6. Axe
    7. Sword
    A sword is still pretty damn cool, noting that I only have modest skills in 1, 2, and 4 above. These are also the ones most likely to get you some food. I could use 3 and 5 in the right circumstances and 6 and 7 would likely get me killed as the skill level is paramount with those.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  2. deMolay

    deMolay Monkey+

    Many moons ago, I took a job in the far north country. Part of the training required for each new employee. Was to take a couple of days of courses, and pass the final tests.

    One course was on survival after a plane crash in the barrens. The other was how to avoid if possible and survive bear attacks. Both given by recognized experts in both fields. I was the only one to pass the survival course. The test consisted of you choosing 5 things for your survival from about 30 items placed on the floor. And rank them in order and your reason for choosing.
    There were knives, a compass, rope, bits of steel, an axe, imagine what would be more or less from a plane wreck. My 1st pick was the axe, then the rope, then a garbage bag, a bit of metal, an empty plastic bottle. Anyways the military trained rescue expert, agreed. He said with the axe I could defend myself against a bear attack, make a fire by striking a spark, cut up meat, make a shelter and make spears, a bow or other necessities, and do all this much better than I could with a knife, no matter the knife. He said always take the axe, the rope I could use to sew moccasins, when my shoes wore out, make fishing line, help carry my supplies and use and reuse to make shelter, make snares etc. the garbage bag could carry what food I might, forage, or provide shelter, the plastic bottle could be used to extend my water rations as I found them, and the bit of metal could be used for signaling or make fish hooks etc. Everybody else went for the googaws and the knife nd the compass. I already knew the area were we would be working had so much mineral in the landscape that a compass would probably lead you astray. And we would be better to travel by the sun, the moon and the stars etc. One test I was always very proud of passing. Most of the other guys laughed and joked at my picks. The axe is a formidable weapon, its only weakness is you basically only get a chopping strike, but if you connect with the bears skull you have a good chance of killing him as he kills you. Ha ha ha
     
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  3. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    What are you doing flying around in a Northern Wilderness without a Personal FireArm??? That is just STUPID.... Let alone not having a Good Pack Knife, a Fire Starting Kit, a SpaceBlanket, and at least two days of High Calory Food Stuffs in your Pack Gear...You must think you are indestructable... Believe Me, when I tell you, Your Are NOT... I traveled for 40 years, all over Bush Alaska, and ALWAYS carried the above things in my Pack Gear... Minimum, and usually a lot more.... Also what Bush Pilot wouldn’t have a Complete Weeks Survival Kit inside the Tail of his Aircraft? None of the many I know, that is a GIVEN...
     
  4. deMolay

    deMolay Monkey+

     
  5. deMolay

    deMolay Monkey+

    Read what I posted again. It was a course I took, and the final test. I did not fly anywhere. The test was to simulate that you are the only survivor of a plane crash in the far north and you have to gather your kit from the wreckage. I don't even walk across my own yard with out at least a sturdy lock blade and a leatherman. Quit using so much sugar in your coffee. AGAIN I WILL REPEAT it was a test on a course I took. I did not fly anywhere. For Bruce's Benefit. Ha ha ha.
     
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  6. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Steady on, Bruce. De Molay was simply describing a survival course he did for an unspecified job (FIFO?) a while back up in the far north sticks. He explained a theoretical 'plane down' scenario, where students were required to do a 'forced choice' assessment of the survival value of the student's most preferred 5 survival items from a possible range of 30 objects; and provide an explanation as to why those particular objects were chosen, and what their possible survival value would be and and what uses they could be put to.

    De Molay wasn't flying, though I guess, his job may well have required him to be an aircraft passenger at times, and the training was provided to prepare him for an emergency crash landing situation should it ever happen...A company duty of care thing I would suppose. De Molay was not arguing that pilots,and passengers (or aircraft) of bush flying flights only be equipped with an axe, a piece of rope, a plastic garbage bag, a piece of metal and an empty plastic bottle.

    No, De Molay wasn't making any such claim, and I am confident that De Molay isn't deluded on that score either.

    I don't doubt it, and I don't think de Molay would have any reason to doubt it either.

    Even though you may know many bush pilots who keep an extensive personal survival kit, and a dedicated aircraft kit, that is a subset of a larger population of (possibly amateur) pilots (from out of area) and aircraft which may be inadequately equipped or not equipped at all. As a passenger, it cannot be axiomatically assumed that the pilot or aircraft that they are travelling with is adequately equipped beyond what is mandated by law (if at all), or that the kit if it exists, will necessarily survive impact intact or be accessible if the aircraft is submerged or catches fire. Murphy's law applies to the best of pilots and air services.

    .............................................................................................................................................................................................................

    I think that part of the problem is that Bruce has misunderstood the purpose of the test, and the methodology of the assessment.

    Given that De Molay's survival course was just a day or two, there probably would not have been sufficient time to develop knowledge and skills comparable to the survival component of military SERE training Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape - Wikipedia As a military instructor, I see the 'plane down' scenario as a means of assessing the student's critical thinking ability as applied to identifying and utilising the survival potential of found objects near a crash site, or on the way from the crash site to a place of rescue / recovery.It is a forced choice exercise, which requires the student to prioritise their choices. In reality, a survivor would gather up every and any resource that is practicable for their survival. In that sense the exercise is somewhat artificial, but realism is not the name of this game...the plane crash just sets the scene and the parameters of the exercise simulation....a student who merely says..."well, my plane would be flown by an experienced pilot of 40+ years of bush flying experience and would have a fully stocked survival kit on board, so, this is a "dumbass exercise", would get an immediate fail. Such a response, in trainer parlance, would be called 'fighting the problem'. A phenomenon often enough magicked PIDOOMA PIDOOMA - RationalWiki by a number of aspiring officer trainees when I was a tactics instructor / assessor.
     
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  7. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    I participated in a test like that but it was mostly for fun ,I don't think any one but me took it seriously.
    I was lost in the woods once, so it gives one the ability to reflect on their choices more realistically .
    If you have never actually been in that situation, it is hard to appreciate the value of certain things .
    I reflect too on the movie "The Edge" ,the plane crashes in the water so most of the gear sunk with the plane.
    However , upon reflection I believe that once ashore and got a fire going to warm up I might have headed back down to the plane to recover what I could even set a marker. In that particular event I would have built camp and stayed there maintaining a smokey fire to attract searchers . It is harder to find some one moving unless of course they are carrying flags .but no one does that .
    I would not hand a knife to a kid that was inexperienced ,very likely to hurt them self . I have enough trouble keeping my self uncut.
    You burn less calories staying put and calm, than hiking and fretting with anxiety ..
    In the movie "The Grey" again leaving the plane was a mistake , the fuselage provided shelter and protection from the wild and the ELT locater would drive rescuers on scene . I don't know that a plane is allowed to fly with out them, especially something commercial . There were enough survivors to makeshift something to enclose the pane , but then it's a movie . I get that .
    There are batteries lights aviation fuel and all kinds of other materials for making ones self comfortable in that kind of situation.
     
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  8. deMolay

    deMolay Monkey+

    Thank you Sir, you described perfectly what I was trying to convey, I was being assessed for critical thinking in an emergency. It would have been a fly in job had I accepted.
    It would have been doing maintenance on the Old DEW Line across the mostly Barrens of Northern Canada. A joint US/Canadian Operation. It's my own fault for confuzin Bruce. I am a bit long winded. They were assessing me, and I was assessing them and their offer. I passed all security clearance, had the skills, had the job, and a written offer. I declined because I could not see myself doing 6 wks turnarounds in a confined area, what really turned me off, I was not allowed personal weapons for protection against polar bears etc. I don't subscribe to the pepper spray story. They paid my travel and expenses and a per diem for my time.. And it was a good learning experience with the Gubmint Bear Biologist. Learned a lot about bears. So sorry for unintentionally setting off Bruce.
     
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  9. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    @deMolay Ok, Yea, I got a bit carried away, last night... I shared many a Bush Plane Charter with a bunch of Dew Line Techs, out to many of the sites in Alaska, over the years, and have fond memories of Tin City, Barrow, Shimla, Bethel, Nome, and a few others... Most of those folks were maintaining the Old White Alice Comm sites that connected the Dew Line Radars back to the Air Force Site in Colorado... I was maintaining the Backup HF SSB Comms Radios, as a Traveling Tech for Northern Radio Co. during those years... They were working for RCA Alascom that held the Comms Contract to maintain the System... Many of the HF Sites used the Massive Rhombic HF Antennas they inherited from the US Army Alaska Communications System of the WWII Era... The southern Terminus of that System was on Pigeon Hill, in West Seattle, Washington... That site, when decommissioned, was turned over to the University Of Washington Engineering School as an Antenna Test site... This is where Doc Renolds did most of his Pioneering work in Antenna Design... Oh, man I haven't thought about those days in decades...
     
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  10. deMolay

    deMolay Monkey+

    It's all good. Carry on and Happy Trails.
     
    chelloveck likes this.
  11. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    I think a 2 handed katana .or a claymore or rapier could take a spear .
    I have several swords and a spear . the problem with a spear is changing advances and dealing with more than one or two assailants .One thing missing in the video is the fact the spear had a wood shaft and a significant bladed sword could half that shaft, giving the swordsman the spear head. .
     
  12. AxesAreBetter

    AxesAreBetter Monkey+++

    I've taken spears before...a lot has to do with the fact that most people with swords are not trained against spears, and swords are a weapon you must adhere to a method with.
     
    arleigh likes this.
  13. Hanzo

    Hanzo Monkey+++


    Draw while moving. You can dodge the charging knife wielder too. Like I always say, change speed change direction. Direction can also be vertical.
     
  14. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    Fencing is fun .
     
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  15. 3M-TA3

    3M-TA3 Cold Wet Monkey

    I have a PHD in fencing, here it is below
    upload_2019-1-6_13-7-30.
     
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  16. jim2

    jim2 Monkey+++

    There is a Canadian guy on YouTube makes vids on ancient weapons. Search Skallagrim. He like guns and other stuff too, and seems to be very honest. Worth watching!
    Spears rule for many reasons.

    jim
     
  17. Wildbilly

    Wildbilly Monkey+++

    I'm a Civil War re-enactor who has just enough experience with both bayonets and sabers to offer one word of advice...DON'T! Effective use of ANY bladed weapon requires extensive and continual training and a lot of muscle! Granted, my experience with the socket bayonet for the 1853 British Enfield rifle was limited, due mostly to the fact that I couldn't move my arms after a few hours of bayonet drill. I purchased a reproduction saber at a reenactment, and after waving it around for just a little while my wrist and elbow hurt like hell! I'm reminded of General Nathan Bedford Forrest (aka The Wizard of the Saddle), who said concerning sabers in orders to his troopers,,,," send them home or leave them in camp, but carry an extra pistol"! Forrest was able to use a saber effectively because he was a 6' 4", 250 lbs. of former blacksmith. During the course of the War he had 29 horses shot from under him, but he killed 30 Yankees in personal combat!
     
  18. Hanzo

    Hanzo Monkey+++


    I teach my students to stick the sword straight in, but take it out like the Nike swoosh.
     
  19. crowdaddy

    crowdaddy Monkey++



    I believe Nathan's saber was sharped on both sides of the blade. I was a Civil War reenactor for about 15 years. A Southerner as yourself. Done a few bayonet charges when we were allowed to actually fix bayonets. A full Battalion charging your front is pretty damn intimidating, even if it just for play!
     
  20. Wildbilly

    Wildbilly Monkey+++

    At the Battle of Okolona, Forrest only used ONE side of his saber...and that was to hack down as many Yankees as possible before they killed him! He lived, but had to tell his Mother that her youngest son Jeffery had died that day! A member of Forrest's staff said that one side of his uniform was drenched in Yankee blood, and that the General looked as if he had been to a hog killin'! I had two paternal ancestors that rode with Forrest!
    I am a southerner and a lifelong student of the Civil War. I was born in 1958, just before the Centennial, my parents took my sister and I to visit Shiloh Battlefield, when I was 5 or 6 my uncle read me a children's book about the War and made sure that I understood that "the men were right who wore the gray and right will never die!"! As a Boy Scout I hiked over many a Civil War battlefield (with a Confederate Battle Flag), I read and watched Gone with the Wind numerous times, always hoping that the South would win! History was my favorite subject in school, and one of my majors in college. I became a Confederate re-enactor during the 125th Battles! I have been in 5 different regiments, fought battles from Texas to Pennsylvania, was in the movie Gettysburg and was active until about 2002, when I took a long French Leave on account of work and family. A few years ago, I rejoined the fray as a member of the 18th Alabama! I'm a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and have an extensive library of Civil War books (that I have read)! The Civil War is a subject that you can study for a lifetime and still learn something new!
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2023
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