Syrian Revolution Expanding Into a Regional Conflict

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by tulianr, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    This is why, I believe, that the US has been hesitant to take sides in the Syrian Revolution - doing so would have triggered what is happening now of its own accord. AlQaeda, and other Sunni extremists, have thrown their support behind the rebels; which has, in turn, encouraged Iran and regional Shi'ites to throw their support behind the Assad regime.

    There is the potential that the entire middle east could be dragged into the fray. Already, Turkey has provided the rebels a safe haven and has exchanged artillery fire with Assad forces, and has directly warned Syria that they face a declaration of war if hostilities continue to leak into Turkey ; Lebanon has been flooded with refugees and has been the site of an assassination which was in all probability arranged by Syrian loyalists, and Syrian rebels have killed and captured Lebanese Hezbollah troops, fighting for the Assad regime; Jordan has been flooded with refugees, and has accepted up to a couple of hundred American spec ops forces, now based near the Syrian border; Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other Gulf nations continue to provide financial and military support to the rebels; and Iran has dispatched Revolutionary Guards personnel and weapons to the Assad regime.

    In this article, we read that Iraqi shi'ite private citizens are are making their way into Syria to fight on the side of the Assad regime.

    Iraqi Sects Join Battle in Syria on Both Sides


    Published: October 27, 2012

    BAGHDAD — Militant Sunnis from Iraq have been going to Syria to fight against President Bashar al-Assad for months. Now Iraqi Shiites are joining the battle in increasing numbers, but on the government’s side, transplanting Iraq’s explosive sectarian conflict to a civil war that is increasingly fueled by religious rivalry.

    Some Iraqi Shiites are traveling to Tehran first, where the Iranian government, Syria’s chief regional ally, is flying them to Damascus, Syria’s capital. Others take tour buses from the Shiite holy city of Najaf, Iraq, on the pretext of making a pilgrimage to an important Shiite shrine in Damascus that for months has been protected by armed Iraqis.

    While the buses do carry pilgrims, Iraqi Shiite leaders say, they are also ferrying weapons, supplies and fighters to aid the Syrian government.

    The Iraqi Shiites are joining forces with Shiite fighters from Lebanon and Iran, driving Syria ever closer to becoming a regional sectarian battlefield.

    Lebanon, which has 100,000 Syrian refugees, was pushed to the brink this month when a Sunni intelligence chief was assassinated in a bombing. Many Lebanese blamed the Syrian government and its allies for the attack. Jordan, sheltering more than 180,000 refugees, has struggled to contain the violence on its border, which claimed the life of a Jordanian soldier in a firefight with extremists last week. Turkey, with more than 100,000 refugees, has traded artillery fire with Syria since Syrian shelling killed five civilians near the border early this month.

    Now Iraq, still haunted by its own sectarian carnage, has become increasingly entangled in the Syrian war. And Iran, which, like Iraq, is majority-Shiite, appears to be playing a critical role in mobilizing Iraqis.

    According to interviews with Shiite leaders here, the Iraqi volunteers are receiving weapons and supplies from the Syrian and Iranian governments, and Iran has organized travel for Iraqis willing to fight in Syria on the government’s side.

    Iran has also pressed the Iraqis to organize committees to recruit young fighters. Such committees have recently been formed in Iraq’s Shiite heartland in the south and in Diyala Province, a mixed province north of Baghdad.

    Many Iraqi Shiites increasingly see the Syrian war — which pits the Sunni majority against a government dominated by Alawites, an offshoot of Shiite Islam — as a battle for the future of Shiite faith. This sectarian cast has been heightened by the influx of Sunni extremists aligned with Al Qaeda, who have joined the fight against the Syrian government much as they did in the last decade against the Shiite-led Iraqi government.

    A senior Sadrist official and former member of Parliament, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that convoys of buses from Najaf, ostensibly for pilgrims, were carrying weapons and fighters to Damascus.

    Iran, which has been accused of sending weapons and fighters to Syria, may have employed the same ruse. After the Syrian rebels detained 48 Iranians in Damascus in August, the Iranian government said they were pilgrims, and expressed outrage that they had been kidnapped by the rebels. According to American intelligence officials, at least some of the pilgrims were members of Iran’s elite Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps.

    It was the bombing of an important shrine in Samarra in 2006 that escalated Iraq’s sectarian civil war, and many Iraqis see the events in Syria as replicating their own recent bloody history, but with even greater potential consequences.

    Hassan al-Rubaie, a Shiite cleric from Baquba, the capital of Diyala Province, said, “The destruction of the shrine of Sayyida Zeinab in Syria will mean the start of sectarian civil war in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.”
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  2. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    It seems that the Middle East is going to hell in a handbasket....I think the dominos started falling when G Dubya and Co (Blair, Howard et al) decided that invading Iraq was a capital idea. HMMM I don't believe in the efficacy of prophecy, but I see missiles impacting in Damascus, Teheran, Baghdad, Riyadh etc.......if the missiles start hitting Israel, Ankara or Karachi.....then the handbasket can be expected to free fall. Naturally, China and Russia will be the spoilers on the sidelines promoting their own self interested agendas.
    oldawg and tulianr like this.
  3. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    It seemed to quiet things down better than the current administration has managed. Our inexperienced one does have the region in quite a muddle. So far, the trend is the more we scale back the more they attack.

    I believe the Brits had an expression borrowed from the Romans "oderint dum metuant" or "let them hate, so long as they fear" which seems to work well in the ME.
    jim2 likes this.
  4. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Depending on your flavor of news, if Al Qaeda has indeed made a move, then it is safe to conclude the U.S. has also done so.

    (Since we can connect 'A' to 'Z' in OH! so many ways...)

    Too many people see only chaos and blame the effects on a corrupt or incompetent government. The thing is, there exists secret knowledge comprising the creation of order through chaos, from occult concepts to scientific study of fractals. Don't let your eyes be fooled too easily.
    gunbunny likes this.
  5. Hazmat54

    Hazmat54 Monkey+++

    So, is there any way the Christians in the Middle East can be saved? They were there before the Muslims, and lived in peace with them for hundreds of years. Only in recent history have the Islamic Extremists started preaching genocide against the Christians.
  6. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    As much fun as it is to blame everything on the Obama administration, the seeds of what is coming to fruit in the Middle East were planted and watered a long time ago, in my opinion. What we are seeing now would have occurred no matter who was sitting in the White House.

    The string of popular uprisings, known as the Arab Spring, came about as a result of decades of often tyrannical rule by a handful of despots. Each country has it's own story, but they all have much in common; and in many ways what those countries are going through is little different than what European countries went through in the sixteenth to the eighteenth centuries. Monarchies were overthrown, and the will of the people expressed. Just as the English Civil War, the American Revolution, and the French Revolution resulted in excesses and atrocities; so too must these popular uprisings.

    I don't know what could have been done differently in the Syrian situation. The American government has been between a rock and a hard place from the beginning of the Syrian uprising. I think the American government, and the Israeli government, would have been much happier to have had the status quo maintained. Assad is a worthless little t*rd; but he was predictable. Now, nothing is predictable. The uprising was bound to take on a Sunni flavor, as they are the majority group in Syria, and was equally bound to attract Sunni extremists (read: AlQaeda); and someone in the American government must have realized early on that to support the rebels would mean crawling into bed with AlQaeda on some level. That was impossible. Someone in the government must have also realized that Assad, as an ally of Iran and Hezbollah, would attract their support; so trying to act as a mediator/peacemaker would mean siding with Iran and Hezbollah, because any sort of peacemaking would mean a continuance of Assad in power. That too was impossible.

    Other than having a humanitarian concern, America cannot take sides in this fight, and has to just wait until all of the dust settles. The Syrian rebels are not necessarily our enemies, unless we make them so; but a lot of our enemies are fighting on their side. Right now, the rebels will take help from whomever offers it. The timing and level of American intervention in this fray is crucial. The desired end result is a free Syria that will be an asset to the area, not a source of conflict.
    chelloveck likes this.
  7. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    I'm actually not seeing much of a concerted effort to attack or drive out Christians from the Middle East in general. There have even been some very positive stories come out of Egypt about moderate Muslim and Coptic Christian cooperation and mutual assistance. There are, of course, extremist Muslim elements in all predominantly Muslim nations, just as we have our own nutcases in this country who claim Christianity. In general though, the extremists seem to be the exception, rather than the rule.

    Iraq is a bit of an exception, in that you are seeing attempts to redefine communities by religious profession. It isn't just an attack on Christians though. Sunni extremists have attacked Shi'ites, Sufis, and others, in addition to Christians. It still has more to do with politics and power than religion. It greatly resembles the ethnic cleansing that took place in Bosnia. There too, it was about power, not religion.

    Lebanon is another country where there has been strife between Muslims and Christians, lasting for decades, but it is still more about politics than religion. In Lebanon, the Christians have always identified themselves as a political block, as have the Druze, the Sunni, and the Shia'. Conflict between religious groups there has always been about political control.

    I agree with you that it is only recently that we have seen anything but isolated, sporadic attacks by Muslim Extremists on Middle Eastern Christians. For the most part, Christians and Muslims have lived together peacefully in predominantly Muslim nations. This radicalization of Islam, that began thirty or forty years ago, is troubling. I think the best way to combat it though is to realize that these radical extremists are the exception, rather than the rule (though they get all the press); and to not allow them to define the battlefield. Every time that a western Christian castigates the entire religion of Islam for the actions of a few nut cases, the extremists score another victory.
    chelloveck likes this.
  8. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    I worked with a few of people who were born and raised there. All the region respects is strength which is something 0bama's administration just doesn't project at all, I can't say I agree there. I do agree the seeds were planted long ago by the despots who blamed almost everything on the Great Satan. However, the threat of what 0bama would do held the Egyptians back, the Libyans got hammered and Assad can kill everyone he wants. A policy of inconsistency is what we have. Turkey handed one of the Consulate attackers over to Tunisia after we asked them. That was an open insult.

    Judging by how "we" threw weapons and Special Operations trainers (SAS for sure source Brit news) indiscriminately around in Libya; now, 0bama's administration says we need to be careful in Syria? It sounds as if 0bama is learning as he goes? :D
    In Syria, we have been arming the rebels; it was on the news. The flow of weapons and ammunition says someone is helping. There is even a rumor that "we" purchased weapons in Benghazi to ship into Syria. I agreed with the talking head on Fox's comment that it sounded over the top until Fast and Furious came to mind.

    The Consulate had a very active CIA operation. So, in addition to the Consulate's "normal" secret information and equipment there was CIA "stuff." The Consulate was left open for "looting" for weeks and it was looted. The whole thing was handled incompetently.
    Agreed, 0bama should have kept out of Libya and Egypt. 0bama was always against this sort of involvement until he got to do it. As a result, Al-Qaeda or an affiliated group's sphere of influence has greatly expanded in those nations and others.

    Although chaos in the region may have been overdue, the name "0bama" keeps popping up too many times to be ignored.
  9. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    Analysis: US Likely to Be Entangled in Syria's War

    WASHINGTON -- Despite Americans' exhaustion with 11 years of foreign conflict, the victor in Tuesday's presidential race may find it all but impossible to keep the United States from becoming more deeply entangled in the unfolding calamity of Syria's sectarian civil war.

    Pressure for Washington to play a greater role comes from a variety of factors: soaring casualty tolls, hundreds of thousands of refugees flooding into neighboring countries, wholesale destruction of Syria's infrastructure, the growing presence of al-Qaida-linked fighters, fears that violence will spill over into adjacent nations, and the danger that the Assad regime will collapse, leaving Syria's chemical weapons open to theft.

    "The longer this continues, the more sectarian violence is going to take place," warned F. Stephen Larrabee, an analyst with the RAND Corp., a policy institute. "Sooner or later, the U.S. will arrive at a tipping point where it will have to decide if it will watch from the sidelines as the situation deteriorates or has to take some sort of action."

    Moreover, experts said, having committed themselves to Syrian President Bashar Assad's ouster, President Barack Obama and Republican hopeful Mitt Romney would have to do more to make certain that goal is achieved. Otherwise, they risk appearing weak and feckless, leaving the U.S. little leverage to shape a post-Assad regime and less influence in the oil-rich region. Such an outcome also could embolden al-Qaida and allied groups.

    "Our Arab allies have shown some willingness and sensitivity toward the U.S. administration's reluctance to get involved because of the election," said Randa Slim of the Middle East Institute, a Washington-based research center. "But after the election, we will see the Gulf (Arab) allies increase pressure on the U.S. to do more. I think we will see the same from the Turks."

    Obama and Romney both have ruled out U.S. military intervention. So the next president will have limited options to contain the mayhem.

    Those could include more robust efforts to force feuding opposition leaders to agree on the makeup of an alternative government and to identify moderate rebels to whom to channel heavy weapons. The U.S. and Turkey also could deploy anti-aircraft batteries along Turkey's side of the border to protect civilians and rebels across a swath of northern Syria in a "safe zone" that wouldn't require U.N. approval, experts said.

    Neither Obama nor Romney has spent much time during the campaign discussing the bloodiest of the Arab uprisings that have upended the Middle East. But both largely espouse the same approach: oust Assad and stop Syria from becoming an Islamist haven by using the CIA to steer Saudi- and Qatari-supplied arms to moderate rebels while trying to unify disparate opposition leaders with the credibility to be a government-in-waiting that would participate in a U.N.-led peace effort.

    Obama has sent a U.S. military task force to Jordan's border with Syria to help Jordan forge contingency plans in case of a spillover of serious violence, and he has slapped sanctions on the regime to strangle its arms buying. The United States also has provided more than $132 million for assistance to hundreds of thousands of refugees - estimates place the number between 360,000 and perhaps 700,000 - outside Syria and the millions of people - somewhere between 1 million and 10 million - who've been forced from their homes by the fighting and are now scrambling to find food, shelter and medical care.

    The U.S., however, has rejected calls to impose a no-fly zone to ground Assad's airpower and refuses to supply heavy weapons, including shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles, to the rebels, fearing the weapons would end up in the hands of al Qaida-linked Islamists.

    The bloodletting -- estimates of the dead are nearing 40,000 and may be much higher -- also is having a corrosive effect on U.S. relations in the region, experts said. Both Turkey and its Arab allies, frustrated by what they consider a standoffish U.S. role, are outrunning current policy.

    "The U.S. has lost a lot of leverage and it's coming into this particular game too late," said Ammar Abdulhamid, a Syrian dissident and fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, a center-right policy institute in Washington.

    Still, he and other experts said, the U.S. can't stop exploring its options, especially with the war heating up sectarian tensions in Lebanon, where there have been gunfights between Alawites and Sunnis and an Oct. 19 car-bomb assassination in Beirut of a senior Sunni police official that many blamed on Syria and Hezbollah.

    The war also is infecting Iraq, threatening to upend the tenuous stability that the U.S. fought for nine years to secure. Iraqi Sunni militants are siding with Syrian rebels, Shiite extremists are fighting for Assad, and the Shiite-run Baghdad government is reportedly allowing Iran to send arms to Damascus across its territory and airspace, stoking frictions with Saudi Arabia and other Sunni Arab regimes.

    Turkey, meanwhile, has made clear that it won't tolerate Syria's minority Kurds setting up an independent enclave in northeast Syria that is run by the Syrian wing of Turkey's Kurdish rebels and that could enflame Kurdish separatism in Iraq and Iran. In recent days, Syrian Kurdish militia have clashed openly with anti-Assad rebels near Aleppo.

    The senior Arab diplomat said the most dangerous threat demanding greater U.S. attention is the possibility of a precipitous collapse of Assad's rule that could see his army disintegrate. That would leave the country's stockpiles of sarin, VX and other chemical weapons open to theft by al-Qaida-linked militants, who could use them against the U.S. or its allies, or Iran-backed Hezbollah, which could use them against Israel.

    "The chemical weapons threat is much more on your doorstep than anything else," he said. "If Hezbollah gets its hands on these chemical weapons, it will be much more of a threat to Israel than the Iranian nuclear program."

    U.S. officials say they are closely monitoring those stockpiles, and Obama has warned Assad that he will face U.S. military intervention if he uses them or moves them. Yet how Washington would prevent the weapons from falling into the wrong hands should the regime implode remains unclear.

    Analysis: US Likely to Be Entangled in Syria's War |
  10. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    How do you interpret coordinated attacks on a global scale? It was merely a message saying "we" are still alive and well.

    Often folks have two or more enemies; the one desires to "rule us" and the other's only desire is to "kill us." It is very important not to be blinded by the complexities when someone's single focus to kill you. Al-Qaeda offers the NWO the same choice as the rest of us.

    True, there are quite a few ways of connecting the dots, one is a children's game and the other is mil-dots. ;)
  11. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    I don't think you got what I meant. The use of "terror" ™ is nothing more than a means for the global elite to accrue power. If one assumes that Al Qaeda is actually entirely comprised of radical jihadists who "hate us for our freedoms" and were not educated in our universities, funded by our covert intelligence agencies, protected by black ops clandestine groups who have no names, and proliferated over time since (and including) the Mujahadeen freedom fighters repelled Russia --they are sorely mistaken. It is commonly believed that "Government" ™ will protect us and the evil terrorists are the enemy...but they are all part of the very same team, just different departments.

    As for "ruling" us versus "killing" us, I have to say that most of us are only alive right now because we serve their purposes. The goal (as some believe) is to reduce the population to easily manageable levels, but not until after all enemies have killed themselves in war and the global empire can be fully cemented. On the advanced level, some extreme theories even speculate that cloning will become popular one day, removing the need for lowly humans to possess the ability to reproduce naturally. Technology will also play many important roles (see transhumanism).

    "Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful." --Narrator, The Power of Nightmares
    VisuTrac likes this.
  12. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    Israel drawn into Syria fighting for first time

    JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel was drawn into the Syrian civil war for the first time on Sunday, firing warning shots into the neighboring country after a stray mortar shell fired from Syrian territory hit an Israeli military post.

    The Israeli military said the mortar fire caused no injuries or damage at the post in the Golan Heights, which Israel captured from Syria in the 1967 Mideast war and then annexed. But in recent weeks, incidents of errant fire from Syria have multiplied, leading Israel to warn that it holds Syria responsible for fire on Israeli-held territory.

    "A short while ago, a mortar shell targeted an IDF (Israel Defense Forces) post in the Golan Heights," said army spokeswoman Lt. Col. Avital Leibovich. "We answered with a warning shot toward Syrian areas. We understand this was a mistake and was not meant to target Israel and then that is why we fired a warning shot in retaliation."

    The Israeli military also said it has filed a complaint through United Nations forces operating in the area, stating that "fire emanating from Syria into Israel will not be tolerated and shall be responded to with severity."

    Israel and Syria are bitter foes who have fought several wars, but their shared border has been mostly quiet since a 1974 cease-fire. Still, Israel worries that Syria's civil war could spill across into the Golan, and repeated errant fire has intensified that concern.

    Israel fears that if Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime is toppled, the country could fall into the hands of Islamic extremists or descend into sectarian warfare, destabilizing the region.

    Israeli officials do not see Assad trying to intentionally draw Israel into the fighting, but have raised the possibility of his targeting Israel in an act of desperation. They also fear that Syria's stockpile of chemical weapons or other weapons could slip into the hands of Lebanon's militant Hezbollah group — a close Syrian ally — or reach other militants if Assad loses power.

    Israeli officials also worry that the frontier region could turn into a lawless area like Egypt's Sinai desert, which Islamic militants now use as a launching ground for strikes against southern Israel.

    Speaking to his Cabinet on Sunday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel is "closely monitoring" the border with Syria and is "ready for any development."

    Israel drawn into Syria fighting for first time - Yahoo! News
  13. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    It's not getting any better.....and with war and rumours of war, and other apocalyptic signs portending, those hoping for the end times to come are busy laundering their wouldn't do to be raptured in soiled linnen.
    Kingfish and tulianr like this.
  14. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    Pentagon Says 75,000 Troops Might Be Needed to Seize Syria Chemical Arms

    Published: November 15, 2012

    WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has told the Obama administration that any military effort to seize Syria’s stockpiles of chemical weapons would require upward of 75,000 troops, amid increasing concern that the militant group Hezbollah has set up small training camps close to some of the chemical weapons depots, according to senior American officials.

    Mr. Assad has openly threatened to retaliate beyond his country’s borders if outside forces try to break the current stalemate to unseat him, and there is renewed concern about whether he or his proxies might use the chemical weapons as their last shield. Officials say that attacks along the borders with Turkey and Israel have forced the administration to consider the risks of Syria’s troubles spreading in the region.

    Mr. Obama has been clear for more than a year that he would resist direct American intervention, but in August he said one circumstance would cause him to revisit that position. “A red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized,” he said at a news conference. “That would change my calculus.”

    The American concerns have been heightened by another sign that Mr. Assad may be arming himself to strike out — Syria’s continued imports of missile technology, even at a time when the Assad government is reeling under sanctions.

    Syria already has a vast arsenal of missiles able to reach Turkey or strike Israel, and in the past it has provided Hezbollah with missiles. But American officials voice concern over even modest improvements in Syria’s missile stockpiles.

    American intelligence and security officials, in interviews in recent days, said that the United States had picked up evidence that North Korea had resumed providing Syria with some missile technology, including assistance with Scud missiles........
    Independent analysts expressed concern that if Mr. Assad is backed into a corner, he could use or threaten to use missiles tipped with chemical weapons against the rebels, despite the threat of Western intervention if he did.

    “There is credible information that the Assad regime has been upgrading and expanding its chemical weapons arsenal, which needs to be maintained,” said Emile Hokayem, a Middle East analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. “A credible delivery capability is also needed, hence the North Korean angle.”

    “The problem is that you can’t just pick this stuff up and ship it out of the country,” said one senior military official who has studied the problem. The chances of contamination of nearby Syrian towns, and of attacks on the effort to move the weapons, were simply too high. Because many of the containers holding the material are old, or of unknown reliability, the risk of leakage is high.

    As a result, the official said, much of the chemical stockpiles might have to be destroyed in place. That is a lengthy, dangerous job, and would require enormous force protection around the sites. When the United States went through similar efforts to destroy its own stockpiles — under strict environmental regulations that would likely not apply in Syria — the process took years.

    Officials said that the United States military had quietly sent a task force of more than 150 planners and other specialists to Jordan to help the armed forces there, among other things, to prepare for the possibility that Syria will lose control of its chemical weapons.
  15. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    “A red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized,”

    After they use them, 0bama will react has a ring to it which is too similar to Benghazi for me.
    BTPost likes this.
  16. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Closing the Barn Door, after the Cows have all gotten out...... Typical Obummer Reactionary Thinking.....
  17. Tikka

    Tikka Monkey+++

    0bama is too concerned will playing to his base which is why Spectre stayed away from Benghazi.
  18. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Mr. Obama has been clear for more than a year that he would resist direct American intervention, but in August he said one circumstance would cause him to revisit that position. “A red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized,” he said at a news conference. “That would change my calculus.”
    Calculus? That nitwit doesn't understand economics, which is mostly arithmetic enhanced with statistics. How's he going to "change" calculus? (Descartes got that right the first time.) Couldn't change anything else effectively.
  19. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    I'm thinking that I'll not only be watching the Thanksgiving Day Parade, The Detroit Lions, we may also be watching Gaza and Israel trading some weaponry on the boob tube.

    This is going to be a really interesting week, not fun, just interesting.

    It should all be over by Black Friday, right? I need to go get and excellent deal on a new XBox.
  20. oldawg

    oldawg Monkey+++

    VT if you can find a wallyworld that's striking on black friday you could sit back with a six pack and really get a show.From a safe distance of course.Xboxes and flat screens should be the first to go(ghetto survival supplies right?)
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