Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by CATO, May 17, 2011.
YouTube - SHOCKING AUDIO: Philadelphia Police violate rights of open carrier at gunpoint
In Pennsylvania carrying a gun is not reasonable suspicion of a crime and not justification for a stop and search or a detainment.
Open Carry is legal in Philadelphia with a valid license to carry firearms; openly carrying on foot is legal without a license everywhere else in Pennsylvania.
"On a Sunday afternoon, a Pennsylvania resident was walking up Frankford Avenue in Philadelphia, bound for an auto parts store, and happened to be legally openly carrying a Glock pistol on his hip, under PA state law.
A passing Philadelphia Police officer saw his walking up the road, pulled over his squad car in the middle of the busy street, and drew his weapon on the man, threatening to kill him multiple times if he moved.
The man was arrested, stripped of his possessions, and thrown in the paddywagon, while several Philadelphia Police officers made multiple phones calls to try and find out what law they think he broke.
In the end, they discovered that he was in violation of no laws, and was sent on his way, after having been illegally arrested for 45 minutes and his 4th Amendment rights blatantly violated."
File a complaint.
Philadelphia Police Department | Official Complaint Form
id sue thecity for ilegal arrest
Terroristic threats and wanton endagerment on part of the Sergeant in this audio. I'd be suing them big time. If the DA or ADA is not perusing this issue, then the individual needs to file a Writ of Mandamus and get the DA's office moving.
This is the new world. If more people open carried, and if we got rid of the cops or at least trained them properly, we wouldn't be in this situation. This happens all the time.
We have become slaves. We are sovereign. These cops are all criminals, and they don't even deserve to be mall security. Sickening.
Brokor is right, it does happen all the time. My uncle had a similar encounter in TN years back. Here, its a carry permit, not a concealed carry permit. Some douche local cop didn't know the state law and try to give him a hard time.
You certainly don't have this issue in AZ....
The only way to rectify it is for everyone to exercise their Constitutional rights until it is the norm.
We do NOT have this "Issue" in Alaska. We have NO State Statutes that forbid, either Open OR Concealed Carry. We also have a Concealed Carry Permit, that can be issued, that allows State Residents to Carry in States that have Reciprocity with Alaska. We even allow our Felons to possess FireArms, AFTER they have been off Parol, with no further Police Actions, for FIVE Years. If they keep their Noses Clean, the State allows them to Hunt with FireArms. If the Feds Want to pursue them, they can, but No State Troopers are going to give one Big Whoop about it.
Does not hurt that the local fauna in Alaska can be, shall we say, non-friendly with humans and weigh close to a quarter ton or more. Texas will have incidents like this if the open carry law goes into effect. Essentially they are making a Concealed Handgun License into a "Handgun License" and open carry would be permitted, with the same rules as concealed, as long as you are licensed - which is a crock of meadow muffins if you ask me.
If the state wants to institute an open carry, I say NO LICENSE - which is nothing more than a hidden tax to pay the sate for your CONSTITUTIONAL right to carry a firearm openly! Concealed carry, on the other hand, I can understand classes and license. A concealed weapon is a threat, a surprise. If it is PUBLICLY DISPLAYED and you are not breaking a law, threatening someone, or endangering others, the LOCAL, STATE, and FEDERAL LEOs should be THANKING you for showing criminals that it would be a REALLY bad idea to commit a crime nearby.
The sometimes overlooked aspect of this discussion is the fact that open carry is actually safer than concealed carry...
From an LEO standpoint, seeing the gun ahead of time and not being surprised by its presence is actually a good thing. Aside from a few well intentioned, but ill-informed LEOs, the real issue here is the sheeple. The sheeple cry wolf at the sight of fangs and don't realize it is probably a sheepdog since he is showing no outward aggression.
The LEO in the audio clip was not well intentioned at all. He was ill informed and very unprofessional. In fact I think that is a bit of an understatement. He was downright aggressive and ignorant, and that combination is potentially deadly to a law abiding citizen. What is he going to do when he sees a guy carrying a knife to his truck to fillet a fish and all the LEO sees is man with knife in hand? Shoot first and ask questions later? IGNORANCE of the law is NO excuse, as I have been told by a state trooper.
I was a young buck, about 19 years old. Driving on the Florida Turnpike at night, minding my own business. Both left and right lanes were nearly bumper to bumper, and I was in the left lane. This IDIOT comes barreling up behind me and nearly creams my back bumper. He backs off a little, but is still close enough to make me nervous. So, in my brash exuberant youth, I brake check him. Two seconds later dome lights flash on and I am being PULLED OVER. Mind you I was driving below posted speeds (traffic was terrible) and was following all laws, or so I thought.
Once I am able to pull over, this trooper come waltzing up and proceeds to read me the riot act. I explain to him, politely, that he startled me, and I was trying to signal to him I felt he was too close. He said he was going to arrest me and issue citations for failure to yield to an emergency vehicle riding in the left lane! I told him A: I was unaware he was an emergency vehicle, as his lights and siren were not on when he approached me, B: I was unaware of that law, and C: that I was unable to yield even if I wanted to, because the traffic in the right lane was not yielding for me to move over!
He looks me right in the eye and says - "Ignorance of the law is NO excuse!" - Needless to say I was not arrested, I got a 250.00 FRN ticket for failure to yield and a very curt "Have a nice night" when the "officer" left.
Let me be clear, some of my best friends are LEOs. Some of them are career State Troopers in Florida. I myself have no real issues with following and being educated in the law. This case in PA is not isolated, it was just one that was recorded. This issue is so widespread even my LEO buddies are sick and tired of being LEOs and watching these stormtroopers walk all over their duty to PROTECT and SERVE.
welcome to the new police state
Notice the number of news stories lately of people getting in trouble for videotaping/recording the police in public. The police and DAs claim it is against the law. Generally, after a few court appearances, the charges will be dropped against the individual who was doing the taping. These are obvious bullying tactics.
On the flip side, it is OK for LEOs to record anything and use it against you--their dash mount cams do this now. (Notice there how the scales of "justice" just tilted?)
Imagine a state where the voters demanded that all LEOs video, via shoulder cam, their interactions with the public and make all videos available on demand. That is the only way to curtail the ignorance and arrogance of the police officers.
John Stossell had this issue on his show a few weeks ago. One segment talked of an officer who said a person on bicycle was trying to hit him, so he took the guy out. A video showed the exact opposite and the legal machine went after the video holder. Insane.
It amounts to this: LEOs do not want anyone videoing/taping them because it will highlight all of their imperfections and, most importantly, THEY will have to know AND abide by the same laws they uphold.
Police are the enforcers of the establishment. They work to rake-in money for their corporation, and yes everything these days is a corporation, even YOU.
The citizenry are constantly frightened, kept in a state of FEAR. This breeds a perpetual, subconscious desire to be controlled and directed by "police".
The people are told they are special, different, and that they are helping to save the world.
And the pattern repeats itself, time and again. The police are unnecessary to a free and sovereign people.
A couple things....
First, LEOs are hired by city, county, and a few by states here in the US. They do not work for the National Gov't. No way you try to distort Fed Funding is going to support that. They live in the city / county they work in and their friends and family live in the city / county. Lumping them all into the "fascist" category is just outright wrong.
Let's try to put it into the officer's perspective. Do you think that Philly sees a lot of open carry practice? I would probably say not so much. I have carried two different concealed carry permits from two different states and lived in another state that did not require one. In all three states, it was commonly taught that if stopped, you comply with the officer. It will all get sorted out in the end. The "victim" here did not abide by that general rule. To the officer, every person he stops or talks to has the potential to shoot him in the face. This risk goes up with the known presence of a gun. This cop just wants to go home to that family I mentioned earlier. If you can see this situation from the officer's perspective, you can see that the "victim" is making the situation quite dangerous too.
The officer's reaction was likely based upon his daily life of dealing with the scum of the Earth. I doubt the judgmental types here have ever dealt with that on a daily basis. He probably doesn't fully understand how concealed carry works. I have no idea if PA is an open carry state. I have no idea if Philly has any local ordinances. I do think he overreacted, but that is from my perspective from living in states that DO open carry commonly. Since I've never lived in Philly, I can't really judge the reaction. I would have probably handled it a bit differently.
The officer is alone, scared, and the "victim" is armed and not complying. Not knowing whether the "victim" is a criminal or not, would you rather play quick draw Mcgraw or have your weapon at the ready? Its a no brainer. That is the conditions. Both people were wrong here on both sides.
Before the Monkeys play judge, jury, executioners and hang the officer, maybe consider those perspectives? Maybe some Monkey LEOs will weigh in. I know Witch Docter has a LEO background. Of course, the way you guys jumped on the "fascist" bandwagon, I wouldn't want to play in this thread to demonstrate a different perspective. Disappointing.
Sorry to the LEO Monkeys. I doubt they would have the same thoughts if an LEO was the first responder to their interstate car crash.... just sayin'.
I happen to know that Federal funds pay for LEO programs, equipment, and training. So, yes, they are supported by Federal money. Every LEO I know tells me the same thing...the ones we are all angered about are not the exception, they are becoming the NORM. The power and authority goes to their heads. Yes, they can be fascists, just like Teachers can be fascists, your bank manager can be one. Any human being with even a jot of power can be perverted to being fascist.
No, maybe not that much. HOWEVER, ignorance of the LAW in no case is an excuse. He could have been a ton more respectful, made no threats, and called in for clarification BEFORE he started threatening to kill the guy, hell before he did ANYTHING at all. As long as the individual was otherwise law abiding and NOT brandishing the weapon, the only perceived threat was in the Sergeants mind.
Sorry, but the guy was respectful, compliant and very polite. There are 3 more parts of this whole endeavor, which lasted nearly 45 minutes posted on youtube. Even to the end, the VICTIM was polite, respectful and compliant.
Oh? How? By complying with every order and politely trying to explain the LAW to a guy waving a gun in his face - a LEO, I may add with the apparent intelligence of a rock? The LEO was overreacting from the very start, that was definitely apparent to me.
I posted Pennsylvania and Philadelphia law earlier, it is open carry in Philly, with a firearm license, open carry elsewhere in the state without. The scum of the earth, who I have dealt with on a daily basis for five long years, do not ever carry open. Those slime balls hide it because what they own is illegal, stolen, or both. If it is visible it is being used. Stating that the LEO, the person responsible for ENFORCING the laws of the city of Philaelphia not being familiar with a law, especially a firearm law is ridiculous. The man was ignorant, uninformed and a PUBLIC NUISANCE. IA should bust his butt back to beat cop so fast his stripes leave skid marks.
First let us address the "alone" issue. The idiot sees an openly armed person walking down the street and decides to John Wayne him without calling back up until AFTER he gets the guy on the ground? ID10T move #1. #2 - He blasts in like he is Dirty Freakin Harry and nothing the individual does is going to calm this bozo down. I hear the person clearly, cooperating fully, and trying to SPEAK with the officer. Asking permission to show the officer his license. The LEO is losing his mind. The best way would have been to get BACK UP en-route BEFORE you stop a perp, preferably having the backup THERE. So, no. The victim is the citizen, the individual who handled this wrong was the Sergeant form the very start to the finish.
Been there, done that. Fascist ignorant cop. Period. Uninformed. Making terroristic threats, wanton endangerment. The man is dangerous. Get him off the streets.
Well, how does that size 11 taste? I happen to be a huge supporter of LEO's. My Best friends are career LEO's, and they heard this and about had a collective aneurysm. They were extremely embarrassed, and well, you apparently did not read my earlier posts. Your loss, boss.
I can say with some minor knowledge that open carry in Philly, legal or not, is asking for a confrontation. (The Endless Mountains in my avatar line are in PA.) Open carry in my area isn't a large problem, but it will attract attention, not from the Sheriff, but the staters that sometimes pass thru will look at you funny. Don't ask, but the encounter was short and to the (traffic) point.
A couple more issues:
I happen to know where a lot of the funding comes from as well, if you read my original post. Let me ask you this- the LEO friends that you were so quick to point out, do they consider themselves Feds? Are they a part of the new police state? You say that you support LEOs and then you jump on the bandwagon that labels them all as "fascists".
I agree. I would have handled it a lot differently from the beginning as well. I stated that in my original post, so I'm not sure what your point is. After he didn't comply, the officer got a little heated (at least, that is how it sounds in the recording). Trying to have a conversation is not complying. Complying is following the orders of the officer until you can resolve the situation.
I wouldn't know, I have only listened to the recording.
Let me put this as plainly as possible, its not the citizen's job to explain to the officer what the law is. That will come later. All he should do at this point is comply and do what the officer says. As Ghrit indicated, open carrying in Philly is asking for trouble and it is not something the officer is used to seeing (earlier, I posted a way to fix that- more people should open carry). When a Philly officer sees a gun in Philly, its not the same as a Texan seeing a gun. We will get to the law next...
As for the law, this indicates something a bit more grey and less black and white:
It appears that it is only de-facto legal to open carry inside Philly. That was from PAFOA which goes on to explain that you WILL likely get stopped.
Source: Openly Carrying a Firearm/Gun in Pennsylvania
I know legal is legal. You know legal is legal. One should be smart about others' perceptions, though, when you carry. Unless you are demanding attention. Just one more reason I wouldn't live in Philly.
My best guess is the officer was doing his job. Again, he is not used to seeing openly carried guns. To him, gun=threat. First he needs to neutralize the threat to public safety (his job). I certainly would not take a hand away from my weapon to activate a radio until I have the situation under control. (Remember, this is the Philly cop's perspective, not mine. I would have taken an armed, non-aggressive man as just that- an armed non-aggressive man.)
I agree with ignorant. I indicated retraining is necessary. I think the situation was dangerous. It was made that way by both parties. I'm not sure how a size 11 tastes. Is that supposed to be some kind of an internet roundhouse? What are we like 14 on the play ground? I'm a huge supporter of LEOs too... what's your point?
I can see how the profession would be embarrassed. I, as a regular concealed carry permit holder, am embarrassed for how this citizen handled himself. The procedure is quite clear when you are stopped. Pretty much everyone recommends notifying the officer, whether it is law in your state or not, and you should comply with the officer's orders after that. Some won't care. Some will want to disarm and continue. It is the officer's discretion if he wants to. I have been stopped a couple times while armed and never had an issue following those simple guidelines. My uncle was stopped by an ignorant cop for open carry. He complied and they figured it out later. When a gun is pointed at you is not the time to try to figure the law out with the officer.
My bottomline- I'm not taking up for the officer. I am simply trying to show that you have to understand where YOU carry and how that is taken. I believe that the right to carry is a Constitutional one. Even though that's true and I may win that battle, I'm not going to pack an AR15 on my back in the middle of D.C. Someone else with more money and better lawyers can take that battle up.
Tone it down Chuck Norris
This applies... seems that retraining was conducted:
In short, you should not be treated as the citizen was in the recording.
Exactly. However, he was mistreated and his rights were clearly trampled by a hothead Barney Fife cop on steroids. This is to be expected in a city like Philadelphia, where the cops are abusive and ignorant to begin with. I would also like to point out the importance of the fact that the LAW is not the same as a DIRECTIVE or a POLICY, both of the latter apply to the internal workings of the police and are not subject to a free and sovereign citizen. The LAW does not specify or delegate authority to police to apprehend, point their weapons at, scream, demand compliance, arrest, detain, or make a check for concealed carry permit into a bank robbery.
The POLICY of the police is to deter and even prevent open carry whenever possible, and this type of abuse has been permitted only because most people simply don't seem to care anymore. Most people DO NOT open carry. Like I said earlier, if we want to keep the gestapo in their place, we have to outnumber them on the streets -the more who open carry the better. If we do not do this, then it will only continue to be like it is now, and eventually the police will condition the public into believing they no longer have the right to carry firearms at all.
FREE COUNTRY: The people openly carry or conceal carry. Criminals attempt to commit crimes at their own demise. The police chase cats out of trees or direct traffic.
FASCIST COUNTRY: The citizens must produce license, permit, and other papers upon request or face incarceration, fines, and revocation of their privileges. The police and the criminals are the only ones who carry firearms, and the public lives in constant fear.
There are a number of dedicated policemen that actually are trying their very best to 'Protect and Serve" but the trend is going to the other extreme. Federal money has granted military training and weapons to every mom and pop police department in the country along with the strings (read: Federal Guidelines), to the point that they have actually become defacto federal police. Why would a town of 2500 need a freaking swat team? Sardis, Tn has one. I asked a friend that trains Feds, why swat is now used when a knock and serve warrant would do and he answered: "When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail." There's your sign.
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