The coming storm.....

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CATO, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

  2. smithcp2002

    smithcp2002 Monkey+++

    Plan to live off grid, get ready to go back to the 1800. Maybe this will fix the health care system.
    sgt peppersass and Nadja like this.
  3. Nadja

    Nadja RIP 3-11-2013 Forum Leader

    But for those of you that don't alredy know it, after finding out about this, congress did approve updating our elec. grid to be emp proof, but only in D.C. Smile, it is true
  4. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

  5. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Guit, If you look at the Peer Reviewed Papers by the EggHeads in Academia, You will get the Governments, view. HOWEVER, remember these are Academic Engineers, and NOT Practicing Licensed Professional Engineers, with years of experience in designing, and supervising installation, of the Major Generating and Transmission Systems on our National Grid. These Professors of electrical engineering rarely have a PE Stamp, and have NEVER actually practiced the business of Electrical Engineering. I take my information on this subject, from folks who actually have WORKED in the Field, rather than some Yahoo, who Teaches in an Ivory Tower, and has NEVER gotten his hands "Dirty" in the Field. ...... YMMV....
  6. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    So, you're saying if the grid goes down, we don't have anything to worry about from nuclear reactors? foosed

    I'm just posting current news links for people to read. Doing so doesn't endorse one opinion over the other--I'm just sharing. My concern is still the *electric* water pumps on the fuel-rod cooling systems that alluded to in the first post. Grid down/societal collapse/pandemic....doesn't matter, the 100+ plants that exist today require maintenance/upkeep by people. How long does neglect take to cause a system failure at a plant (rhetorical question)?
  7. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I would not want to bet that the EEs (or any other discipline) in academia don't have PE licenses. PEs are obliged to practice in their own areas of expertise, not to meddle in areas that we know nothing about. (Nothing says we can't expand our expertise if we choose to do so, but we better KNOW what we are doing before using the talent lately acquired.)

    The ivory tower occupants are in all probability experts (and licensed) in their narrow areas of interest and practicing appropriately. The whole idea of a pole shift and its results are academic exercises, with little to go on for corrective/preventive design bases. All these post polar shift design studies come from some sort of focused, narrow scope, hypothetical event. If the solution comes with the hypothetical results of the event, one might mitigate the impact from the hypothetical event. Right at that point, practicality enters the picture; who gets to fund building the spare transformers? These things are a mite larger than your 120/6 volt doorbell transformer, so where do you put them and what must the shielded vault look like?

    And so on ad absurdum.
  8. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Nuke Plants have backup Gensets, with the fuel to run them that can produce ALL the Required power to run the Cooling Pumps, should they lose the Grid Connection. This is REQUIRED in the design of the System by the NRC. The issue at Fukashema was, the Gensets were operating normally, and ALL the Operating Reactors were Scrammed. (In Plant Cooling Only Mode) after the Quake, and before the Tsunami hit. When that happened, the Gensets went underwater, with all their associated SwitchGear, which basically destroyed them. The Cooling Pumps were then operating on Battery Backup, which was only designed for a very Limited Runtime. With the Grid Out, (wires, and towers down) and the Gensets DEAD, there was no way to get power to the Cooling Pumps once the Battery Banks died. That is when things went south for the Hot Reactors. Cooling Ponds that were breached by the Earthquake, and subsequent Hydrogen Explosions, are another issue, altogether....
    mysterymet and TheEconomist like this.
  9. Novice

    Novice Monkey+

    Will we get any advance notice of an incoming flare or was that it? I could improvise some faraday cages to protect my electronics but 2 years is a pretty general timeframe.
  10. Pyrrhus

    Pyrrhus Monkey+++

    Best bet would be a couple of days. I have an app on my phone called 3D Sun that sends me an alert when NASA's Solar Dyynamics Observatory detects a CME. There is usually a few days between the alert and the expected time for it to hit earth.
    Guit_fishN likes this.
  11. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Have a 50 cal ammo can with a back-up of your favorite walkie-talkie, radio, e-reader (w/backup SD card with e-books), batt charger. Keep batteries out of them until you need them (comms, radio). Stuff that you think you'll NEED (not want). It's a little piece of mind.

    I know what you're thinking...why should I buy two of all of this stuff just to keep in an ammo can and never use it.

    Nobody said 'preppin was cheap. Look at it this way, if you ever needed this stuff, you'd be willing to pay quadruple the amount now as after an EMP. ...and we're talking sensible things...I'm not suggesting to buy two of an ATN MARS NVS.
    BTPost likes this.
  12. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    What happens when no one is there to fill the gas tanks to those gensets?
  13. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Well, they are all diesel, and (IIRC) there is supposed to be enough fuel on site to run them for 30(?) days without resupply to keep various auxiliary cooling pumps (and other stuff like fire pumps) alive and well. I'd guess that if no one can get there for service, there won't be much need for the power, and few left that will care.
    FWIW, Fukushima may have had enough battery to run the main coolant pumps (or any other pumps for that matter) but that would be very uncommon. Battery backup is usually reserved for critical instrumentation and to start the gensets only. The generators are sized to supply enough power to get the plant on line (from a cold start) and supply itself absent the grid tie. They are not intended, and cannot supply the power that the commercial plant itself will (obviously.) That said, the gennies are typically big honkin plants themselves. I've worked on some that were 2 Mwe output, and there were 4 of those monsters at the plant. (Any pair to do the work, and two for backup.)
  14. sgt peppersass

    sgt peppersass Monkey+

    crap, i make pharm drugs lol
  15. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Yeah...I figured. I worked in a coal mine a lifetime ago and the gennie there was a semi-trailer...and it was always thirsty (ran 24/5) and loud.
  16. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    I'd happily take that bet and give you 2 to 1 odds.

    Fact is, In TEXAS, for most disciplines, like EE, you must have experience to obtain other certs.

    A EE, must have worked under a Master Electrician to be considered qualified to even take the Master Electrician Test in the Metro areas I am aware of. Worked under means they must have completed all task, have the experience, a journeyman Electrician would have accomplished before being allowed to take the test.

    How do I know? I once had a EE ask me to sign him off.

    He did not qualify.

  17. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Ghrit, I wasn't going to take your bet, either. It has been my experience that Academic Engineering Professors do NOT have PE Stamps. I have asked every one I came across, and the only one I ever found was the Department Head of the Chemistry, and Chemical Engineering School, that I went to as an UnderGrad. He was a reTIRED Chemical Engineer, that did all the Design, and supervised the building, of a Major Oil Companies Refineries, here in the USA, back just before, and during, WWII. None of the MANY Professors of Engineering, I have every run across, were PEs, including my Best Friend, and Partner, George, who has a PHD in Electrical Engineering from the University of Washington. He has never worked for anyone, but himself, since he graduated. He has never advertised his services. All his Consulting has come to him, thru "Word of Mouth" This is very typical for the very top of the Phd Engineers, from what I see. They consult, and come up with the BrainFarts, that lesser Engineers, turn into Products, and services. George does the Designs, and prototypes, and then turns those over to PE'ed Engineers like my Brother, that then take the basic designs to the Marketplace. He has done this with 5 of the products that my Brothers firm, markets to other Engineering firms, worldwide. My BIL is a PE in AeroNautical Engineering, also from the UofW, and NONE of his Professors were PEs. Professors teach the theory of the designs, and the math that backs up, those theories, but they rarely are called on to actually Certify a Design for Regulators. ..... YMMV.....
    HK_User likes this.
  18. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    EMP, means??? well about what ever you want it to mean if you do not give it a set of numbers to go along with the name.

    In the early days, way before Gore's Internet, the EMP/RF signal from a two way hand held would drop most electronics off line in the industrial world of my youth.

    No, nothing I know of was destroyed, you just had to hit the Start button again.

    Because of that background you may well find most well designed Electrical/Electronic containment boxes have "Ground" studs on the doors and a ground wire to the main case. Also the weather strip will have embeded wire mesh that is also conected to the ground, and again any view ports will have a mesh in the "glass".

    All of this is tied to the building ground.

    NOTE, any clowns that tell you you need a ground rod for each piece of gear in a production plant should be shown the door before their first coffee break.
  19. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    EMP is defined as a "WideBandwidth Emission" as is a Lightning Strike. A CME, hitting the Magnetic Bubble that surrounds the Earth, causes a totally different influx of energy, into common Electrical Systems. The two, can cause the same results, but by totally different actions, and entry points. This is why when you read, or hear "Talking Heads" that lump the two together, you basically can IGNORE their BS, because they, obviously, do NOT understand the Physics, or Technology, they are talking about. ..... YMMV....
  20. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    OK, gents, I'll defer to your more recent experience with the profs, at least under current regulations. The same will not necessarily be true for MEs and yes, there is time in service (experience under a PE and signed off by him) requirements for us before taking the exams. All of my profs were registered that taught 300 level and above courses at my school.

    FWIW, I sat for the exams with a ChemE that was taking the test for the 7th time. Maybe it's genetic ---. Also, my registration is not limited to a discipline, I took the exam for PE, which at the time in that state was not discipline specific, thus I could practice if I was nuts enough, in any for which a seal was required. I ain't now, and wasn't then that stupid. Since some time after that, the state does certify by discipline.

    BT, your guys can make a good living as have, but they cannot seal designs without registration. It is quite common for designs to be done by people that know what they are doing and be sealed by a supervisor that knows the subject. There are legal and ethical requirements for sealing designs that can't be met without the license. Typically, you're right, the academics theorize and conceptualize things, and working PEs do the details and seal them.
    BTPost likes this.
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