The FBI is Going 9mm: Here Comes the Science

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Yard Dart, Nov 4, 2014.

  1. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    The FBI is Going 9mm: Here Comes the Science | The Loadout Room
  2. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    So, wait... The Marines dump the 9MM, and so have most of the other services who are reportedly looking at something else; but the FBI who has lived by the Smith 40 and Colt 45 want to revert back to something that has been proven to be ballistically inferior in a combat situation?

    Sapper John, Yard Dart and sec_monkey like this.
  3. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    Intriguing..... they state that the ballistics performance of the newer ammo eliminates the reason they left the caliber.... but their argument does sound compelling.... though there are many combat troops that will tell you 9mm gets folks killed due to lack of knock down power.... which allows the enemy to re-engage once shot... not good IMO. I have both so I am interested in where this argument goes....
    chelloveck and Dunerunner like this.
  4. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart Snow Monkey Moderator

    I really don't care much about Calibre, or some such BS, it is, and always has been, "Shot Placement" .... If one can hit the Target, where one wants, with precession, when under stress, then a 38 Special, is as good as an .50AE... Pistols are never good for further than 30 Yds, in Combat, if a Shotgun, or Rifle is available. A Shotgun is good for about 75Yds MAX, and pretty much useless outside that. This was the lesson learned from the Kommiefornia AK47 Bank Robbery Case. If you remember the LAPD was outgunned by Perps with select Fire AKs, and only had Pistols, and Shotguns, to respond with. They went to the nearest Gun Shop and "Borrowed" a few Bolt Action Rifles, and appropriate Ammunition, to finally take down the Perps, from RANGE, and behind cover. Just a NOTE, here... Every one of those LEOs committed a Federal Felony, in walking out of that Shop without completing the ATF4473 Forms, to complete a Legal Transaction. There is NO Exemption for exigent surcumstances , or for Law Enforcement, in the GCA OF 1968, as amended, and in the Kommiefornia Statutes, either. So, The lesson to be learned here, is: Practice, Practice, Practice, and become a better marksman, rather than, buying the Biggest, Badest, Weapon, one can afford. If our State and local LEOs would just learn this one Lesson, a lot of innocent Bystanders, wouldn't be getting shot, like just about ALL the NYPD Shootings, where 20 rounds fired, and bystanders get hit but NOT the Perp. If you can't safely hit the Target, you shouldn't be shooting.... But you should be maneuvering for a better Shot..... I mean, DUH...
    Brokor, arleigh, D2wing and 11 others like this.
  5. Mountainman

    Mountainman Großes Mitglied Site Supporter+++

    It is amazing that .goob repeats the errors of history all the time. Remember the Miami shootout in 1986. 9mm rounds were not effective in that gunfight. I know the bullets today are better then what they had and might be more effective. Not to bash 9mm because that is what I carry during the warm months and a 10mm when wearing a jacket. If I carried a gun for my job a 45 (city) or 10mm (country) would be my choices.
    Yard Dart, Dunerunner and sec_monkey like this.
  6. sec_monkey

    sec_monkey SM Security Administrator

    The [USMC], [US_Army] and the other services would disagree with the FBI.

    Even the FBI disagrees with the FBI ;)
    Brokor and Dunerunner like this.
  7. oldawg

    oldawg Monkey+++

    BT has the problem right. You MUST hit your target. Most people including 99% percent of LEOs couldn't even give you directions to a gun range let alone use one for practice even for marksmanship let alone practical. People grew up with movies and TV showing spray and pray tactics and sooner or later the bad guy gets it. Even my generation grew up watching Hopalong, Roy, and John Wayne using those handy dandy 37 round six shooters. The latest, greatest Glock with a 33 round mag won't help if you can't hit the side of a barn from the inside. All the arguments about caliber aren't going to make any difference at all if you can't shoot to start with.I learned on the SLOW HEAVY .45acp. Only seven or 7+1. Fifty years later it's still my everyday goto because practice makes me a pretty fair hand with it. Even a Ma Deuce isn't worth spit (not to mention hard to carry concealed) if you can't hit the target before they hit you. Pick a firearm that feels right and PRACTICE marksmanship and COMBAT shooting tactics. Surely your life or the life of your family is worthy of a little range time. If not just practice running. Cheaper and probably do you more good. I shouldn't post before coffee.
  8. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    Hey, clearly, it is not the bullet that is the dangerous part. The gun is the only part that makes superman duck!;) you watch the old shows, bullets bouce off. But when the bad guy throws the gun, he ducks!![sarc1]
  9. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Personally, I could give a rat's ass what a cop shoots somebody with, I just wish they'd quit shooting so many people that really don't need to be shot.
  10. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    The main reason, I imagine, for the disconnect between military service preferences, and LEO preferences, is that the military is restricted as to the type of ammunition that may be used in any weapon, due to international conventions. Many in the military are always going to insist that bigger is better, but perhaps if the military had access to the latest in ammunition technology, some would see the issue in another light.
  11. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Make my 9mm pistol a .308 rifle.
    3M-TA3 likes this.
  12. fmhuff

    fmhuff Monkey+++

    Can't argue shot placement, but I just want to know what they're now going to do with those $2 Billion rounds of .40 HP they've acquired. Not that I'd mind an accidental shipping container delivered to my doorstep ;-)
    tulianr, sec_monkey and BTPost like this.
  13. sec_monkey

    sec_monkey SM Security Administrator

    They should be sold to the public at auction :) or given to LEOs that still use .40 S&W.

    TPTB may choose to pay a contractor $8 Billion to destroy them instead which is going to be a massive waste of taxpayer $. :(

    Total loss to the taxpayers $10 Billion.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
  14. NotSoSneaky

    NotSoSneaky former supporter

    LEO with 9mm = Spray & Pray. [tongue]
  15. sec_monkey

    sec_monkey SM Security Administrator

    Monkey Beta Formula

    (ShotPlacement * 0.65 + X) + (RoundEffectiveness * 0.35 + Y) = 100

    X and Y can be positive, negative or zero
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
    Gator 45/70 likes this.
  16. IrishMonk

    IrishMonk Monkey+

    The Navy Seals use the 9mm... and out of all the special Forces units in the world, Id say they see the most real world action... fighting wars we never heard of. If they trust it, so do I.

    Not only do I trust the 9mm, but throw in the fact that I can slide a 33 round magazine into either my Glock 17 or 19... add one to the chamber and that's 34 rounds! 20 more rds than the typical .40... even more for the 45.

    Capacity= knockdown power ;)

    Sry for late edit
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
  17. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Seals use what they need for the mission; make no mistake that they are stuck with one pistol. They trust what they have used and trained to use, not limited to 9mm.
  18. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner Brewery Monkey Moderator

    34 rounds!! I only need 8 in my 1911, and that's only if whatever I'm shooting at hangs around for 7 more rounds of 230 grain .45 ACP. [sarc2]
    DUKE WAYNE, oldawg, HK_User and 3 others like this.
  19. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Seals have a "locker" and a Team armorer, nothing off the shelf and plenty of storage space. So you say you have a Leatherman for you BOB? They have 3 or 5 or how ever many they see a need for, each one for a load out to a planned attack zone. Same goes for their guns.
    sec_monkey likes this.
  20. Wheelsucker

    Wheelsucker Out of Airspeed, Altitude & Ideas

    The military isn't supposed to use expanding ammo so 45 becomes more attractive. It also suppresses nicely. Modern 9mm ammo available to civvies and LEO is as effective as 40 & 45 but gives more capacity, shootability and/or smaller lighter pistols. I believe the extra velocity of the 9mm/40 makes designing HPs to expand consistently easier than in slower 45s (and 380s).

    Damit, you bastards sucked me into the lowest form of ballistic conversation.. Again.
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