The Glocks that shouldn't be

Discussion in 'Range reports' started by gunbunny, Feb 24, 2015.


  1. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    I technically shouldn't post this in the range report section, yet. I've just finished Mrs. Gunbunny's St Valentine's day gift (belated due to shipping) and am really impressed with the results. The reason I decided to try this particular build was due to the fact that she doesn't like Glocks because of the grip. To fix this, I decided to base my build on a Glock 23.

    I call it the the Glockenstein, and it is pictured as the bottom pistol, resting on the wife's yoga mat.

    I started off getting a Gen III Glock 23 (frame only) off of gunbroker. There are plenty of them to choose from. I received (my local FFL did, actually) a Glock 19 frame, but luckily I had a couple of 40-357 trigger housings laying around, and quickly swapped it out. The frame was unused, it looked like it was only test fired. I don't know how or why these empty frames are available, but they make great starters for builds.

    Next, to make it easier for her to keep ahold of it, I put an enlarged magwell on it. For me, it indexes my fingers far better than the finger grooves do, and lets me get a nice, firm grip on it. The wife seemed indifferent, but I soldiered on.

    I changed the trigger spring to a 6 pound unit and replaced the connector with a 3.5 pound connector. I'd like to say the trigger is nicer, but it is a Glock trigger- all I can do is describe it as lighter. I swapped the stock Magazine release for an extended one, but forgot (will be fixed shortly) to get an extended slide release.

    The slide came from my used Glock 22. An adapter plate from Lone Wolf Dist. allows the conversion to take place seamlessly. It cost $54 bucks all by itself, but is worth every penny. A Glock 23 recoil spring is used, not the Glock 22. With a custom slide cover plate and an extended Glock 32 barrel, the build was complete.

    It feels great in my hand, and now want one for myself, instead of my Frankenglock based on a Gen II Glock 22 frame with a Glock 24 conversion barrel to .357 Sig and Glock 35 slide. I'm prepping .357 Sig cases as I write this, so hopefully I can get a range report on the wife's pistol (my pistol is still waiting on parts to finish, and still deciding on whether or not to keep the pistol scope) by the weekend.

    frankenglocks.

    glockensteins.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  2. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    You have talents! Waiting on a range report.
     
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  3. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    The parts are off the shelf, and Glocks are super easy to work on. You only need a punch, and an allen wrench for the accessories. I used to dabble around with 1911's, until I got sick of it; Glocks are so much more forgiving.

    The proof in the pudding will be whether or not I get any accuracy or reliability from my .357 Sig loads with all of the non-factory components.
     
  4. Lone Gunman

    Lone Gunman Draw Varmint!

    Those are, 'play guns' - Right!

    I've been carrying any one of three, 'serious' Glock pistols for more than 12 years, now. I don't use an extended magazine release on an EDC Glock. Why? Because in 12 years of carrying a Glock 12 to 14 hours a day, almost every day of the week, I've had a magazine fall out of my Glock on 3 separate occasions! (Very funny to everybody except, of course, you!)

    Glock's magazine release springs are one of two weak points in the Glock design. (The other weak point is the slide lock spring.) What I do on my self-defense Glocks is to use a standard square mag. release button with the two sharp front corners filed off. Getting a Glock magazine to release when you want it to is NOT the problem; getting the magazine NOT to release when you DON'T want it to is!

    I can, and often do, shoot a Glock as fast as I can type (pretty fast)! In more than 70,000 fired rounds I've never found a need for cute Glock gizmos like extended slide stops, or oversized magazine release buttons. Enlarged magazine wells? Hell, when I'm moving and firing at the same time I don't even look at the magazine well during a recharge; AND, I consider anyone who does to be shooting with his conscious, rather than his unconscious, mind.

    (Hint: Conscious performance in any sport will only slow you down and, sometimes, cause you to fumble. Nobody needs all that, 'gingerbread' on a Glock. Learn to use the weapon, instead; or, at least, that's what Jeff Cooper always taught.)

    [​IMG]

    USEFUL ADD-ONS:

    1. Extended Slide Lock. (Saves your fingertips!)
    2. Hogue, 'Hand-All'; or Pachmayr, 'Grip Glove'. (Helps to keeps the pistol properly aligned in your hands. Personally, I much prefer the Hogue, 'Hand-All' grip.)
    3. Stippled thumb indents on Gen. III pistol. (Same reasons as above.)
    4. Extended and ported Bar-Sto Precision barrel. (Useful for quicker and easier front sight recapture - Especially when you're firing rapidly. More accurate than factory barrel, better case support, and no problems with excessive lead buildup.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
    UncleMorgan likes this.
  5. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    A man has to dabble every so often or we would not have what we have today, I like what your doing, So carry on!
     
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  6. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey Site Supporter+

    I agree with you 100% Gator! Where would the human race be without experimentation?
    I will confess I'm not a Glock fan, bought the first mod19 to hit my hometown and promptly traded it off. It just isn't for me. I have shot many others over the years and feel the same,BUT as a shooter,collector and student of firearms I can and do appreciate the design. I also enjoy seeing how others customize their firearms. If some mods work for a particular person, then by all means they should make them.
     
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  7. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    You are absolutely correct- I do not plan on carrying either of these. I have other Glocks for that. I started out getting a conversion barrel from .40 S&W to .357 Sig, just to see what the cartridge is like. I felt there was some potential for me to play around with the cartridge and see what velocity I could attain.

    When I saw the "buy a slide and get the barrel for free" deal LWD had, I couldn't resist, and bought the freakiest slide I could, thinking that this weapon will be just for fun, especially if I teamed it up with the scope mount (which is by all means cumbersome). So, that left me with an extra slide.

    St Valentine's day was around the corner, I had some tax return money, and a stray thought went through my head. "Why not build one for the wife?" I asked myself. She likes her S&W M&P. No problem, she uses it while on duty. These Glocks are intended for fun.

    I agree with you on several points. Trinkets and gadgets are for sport.

    The custom slide covers usually would take your attention away from the sights. I'm not worried about that in a defensive situation, these pistols are locked in a safe at home.

    The extended slide release and magazine release are nice when rapid shooting. I enjoy the smooth and quick magazine changes when I don't have to move my hand in the slightest when blasting away.

    I've heard many people put down magwells. I like them. When I put them on, it's not to help with the magazine changes, that was stated above. I use them when they reduce the grip length slightly and force my fingers together.

    Maybe it's just mental, or maybe it's the way my muscles work, but when the fingers of my hands are crammed together comfortably, I can index the weapon consistently and keep muzzle rise to a minimum. I first noticed this when shooting a 1911, and was running from one side of the firing line to the next, shooting at a 4" plate at 30 yards. I could hit it more often with the 1911 equipped with the magwell, than with the other with a better trigger.

    If it doesn't work for you, that's cool. This is America. You can tell me I'm full of $hit; I don't care because your $hit is just as good as mine. Ford vs. Chevy, et al.

    As for the rubber grips, they never worked for me. There is something about them that keep me from indexing my hand properly when drawing as quickly as possible. But I will refrain from telling people their equipment sucks because they don't use them, I understand biometrics can cause all sorts of funny things to happen.

    Bar Sto makes nice barrels. Perhaps if they had a sale going on and I had cash in hand, I would have went that way. I prefer Storm Lake barrels (same price point) over LWD, but again, they weren't having a sale at the time of tax return money.

    I guess the two large coffee cans full of spent primers that I've slowly collected over the years from reloading for my hobby means I'm just as qualified to spout as anybody else here.
     
  8. Lone Gunman

    Lone Gunman Draw Varmint!

    :) Hopefully, the above was cathartic for ya! I apologize. I forgot where I was for a moment. I'm sure there are lots and lots of gun gamesmen, and, 'play guns' on this site. I did not, by the way: say, mean to say, or imply that you're full of shite. (Whatever you're full of makes absolutely no difference to me; but I'm sure it's not shite.)

    However when it comes to handguns and how to use them well, those of us who've been doing it for awhile (those of us who are legitimate survivors) should always be careful about what we teach and encourage law-abiding neophytes to do with their (presumably) self-defense handguns.

    In fact I had occasion to open up my well stocked gun safe this morning. Know what? There isn't one, 'play gun' in there - Not one! Neither can I remember ever finding a gun, any gun, to be uncomfortable to handle or shoot. All of them from little 22's to 45 Supers, and 44 Magnums have always presented me with exactly the same challenge: Pick it up, and shoot it straight. No matter what gun, it's one of the shooter's primary responsibilities to handle it well. (By extension, this prerequisite also applies to your opponent's gun(s) too.)

    Just like you I, also, modify, and have modified, my favorite guns; but the emphasis is always on performance. Nowadays before I'll touch a gun, or make any changes to it I make sure that I understand the piece very very well. Should things ever get really serious, I already know that I won't be doing the shooting, my reflexes will. All I require of a gun is that it gives me an accurate (or predictable) shot every time I tap the trigger.

    A modified gun is fine with me; it's just that I don't see ANYTHING in your pictured Glocks that will, in any way, aid and abet the original primary purpose of your two Glock pistols. That purpose is CQB pistol gunfighting. Quite frankly if I had a student show up carrying one of those things I'd either send him home to get a real gun, or I'd loan him one of mine. 'Play pistols' can't be used for serious range practice.

    Again, I forgot where I was; and, I guess, the fact that I was warning other shooters NOT to do something like that to their Glock pistols got, somehow, overlooked. As long as they're for fun enjoy your guns! If you're open to a little advice: Take it from a senior firearms instructor: I've been teaching people how to handle and shoot pistols for many many years; and, if your eye is being distracted by the art work on your Glock's slide cover, then ...... no matter how many primers you've got in those cans, nobody's ever taught you how to correctly aim a combat pistol.

    Hubris isn't going to help you win very many CQB pistol gunfights; but proper technique, the right pistol, the right caliber, nice tight concentric groups, and skillful weapon-handling will! ;)
     
  9. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    I guess the thread title wasn't sufficient.

    Anyway.

    I started to make up some cartridges tonight with components that I had on hand. I have plenty of empty casings collecting dust in a bin for the last decade. I thought about resizing a few .40 S&W casings because they would be a few thousands of an inch shorter than regular .357 Sig cases, which would benefit me only because of my choice of bullets.

    I just wish there was more of a bullet selection out there that would work. Most 9mm bullets have too much of an oglive, and when seated to the 1.140" COL depth, will fall into the cartridge and not be able to be crimped. The neck is so short on the case, it requires a bullet with straight sides. I was hoping the 125gr and 147gr Bayou Bullets would work, but they also have too shallow of an angle for the flat nose and fall into the case before the 1.140" mark.

    Of all the 9mm bullets I have laying around, a box of Speer 125gr FMJ, a bag of Winchester 115gr JHP, a bag of Bayou Bullets 147gr poly coated cast lead, a bag of Bayou Bullets 124gr poly coated cast lead, a bag of 147gr Rainier Ballistics TMJs, a bin full of 95gr Rainier Ballistics TMJs, and lastly several boxes of Hornady 90gr XTPs, the only projectiles that would give me a COL of 1.140 or less were the 90gr XTPs that are usually the steady diet of my Glock 42.

    I had a bit better luck with the powder selection, I narrowed it down to either Unique or Blue Dot. Considering that I have slightly longer barrels than stock, and that the book values give Blue Dot slightly higher velocities, I went with Blue Dot. Starting at 10% under the max suggested load, I fired up the electronic powder measure/trickler and went to town.

    I have a selection of 10 powder charges that are 0.2 and then 0.1gr apart as I get closer to the published max. When I start to see signs of excess pressure, I'll back off and stop shooting. It isn't much trouble to demill a bunch of cartridges, better to spend some time pulling them apart and reloading them at the right pressure than to cause trouble. I'll work on accuracy a bit more after I determine where the limit is going to be.

    I forgot how careful you have to be with .357 Sig; the case mouth has to be crimped very tightly or you can push the bullet back into the case, but if you crimp too tightly you just crumple the case like an accordion. There is hardly any leeway.

    I'm not too worried about finding the most accurate load for this bullet weight, because I ordered some Nosler 124gr JHPs and some Hornady 125gr XTPs. From what I've read, everybody says these bullets have enough parallel sides before the cone that allow you to load them within the 1.140" COL this cartridge demands. That bullet weight is what the .357 Sig was intended for.

    After loading the first 200 cartridges (using a Rockchucker, I didn't want to set up the progressive for several reasons), I realized a few things. I took my time with the case prep because of the special needs of the bottleneck, but it didn't really seem to help much. When I go to set this up on the progressive, I'm going to need a different setup than I normally use for pistol cartridges.

    First thing, I believe a carbide resizer is in order. When I find some loads that I feel like making en masse, the effort I put into case prep will be too much for me to continue shooting this cartridge on a regular basis. The carbide resizer means I won't have to use case lube, and the subsequent step of cleaning it off is removed.

    Second thing, Lee makes a collet crimp die that will crimp in a better manner than the regular taper crimp/seater die does. I would use the third station for the bullet seating only (foregoing the taper crimp), and use the fourth station for the collet crimp die, eliminating the possibility of accordion crushing cases.

    Unfortunately, my 6" pistol is still waiting for the internal slide parts. The wife's pistol, and my original drop in (G22) conversion barrel will have to suffice. All I have left to do is dig out my chrony and wait for some spare time during daylight hours.
     
  10. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    And would these have potential for your 9mm loads? 120 9mm 004 (1024x768). 120 9mm 005 (1024x768).
     
  11. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    For 9mm? Sure, a sizer could easily knock them down to .356 and load with Clays, Unique, or Trail Boss (designed for and great with cast lead, and people are still developing new uses for it). I know Lyman makes the lubrisizer, which lubes cast bullets and sizes them at the same time. If I shot more cast lead than I do now, I would be looking into one. Pan lubing is what I do at the moment, and I'm sure all of my lubes are the beeswax subsonic only variety.

    For .357 Sig? I would have to do some research, as they would be propelled around 1400 fps at the top end. I'm not sure what bullet lubes are rated for velocities that high. Again, they would have to be resized to .356 or .355, but I'm not sure if the round nose has a short enough oglive to fit in the .357 Sig case with an COL of 1.140 or not.

    You would think there would be a mathematical equation for calculating whether or not a given bullet will work based on the length from the parallel side to the tip... I'll have to search for one. The reason I gave up on reloading for the .357 Sig ten years ago (hence my original conversion barrel that I have from LWD with no markings- they didn't mark them back then) was because I couldn't find adequate bullets to load.

    It is a little bit better nowadays, as I have a batch of bullets coming in the mail in the near future. Here's some pictures of the finished product, including some of my .380 ACP loads I did the other day. I'll be having fun this weekend if the weather holds out for me.

    P2260003 (625 x 469).
    Ample room before the angle of the cone to crimp the little 90gr XTPs.

    P2260005 (625 x 469).
    Speer brass was always a little funny; the primer pocket is slightly indented.

    P2260007 (625 x 469).
    This weekend's fare! I ran out of boxes for the .380 ACP and used the plastic bag that the Bayou Bullets came in. I really hope the 105gr poly coated FP leads perform well; they are really cheap, and only use 3.2gr of Unique to load. I'll chroney those loads, too.

    My carpet is filthy thanks to the stupid primer catch pan on the Rockchucker. I don't know if they could have engineered a better primer faucet or not. Gaad- all the polishing media from this weeks case prep episodes... Maybe I should take the weekend off and clean up?
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
  12. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    P.M. me your address if you want the projectiles to check them out?
     
  13. Tully Mars

    Tully Mars Metal weldin' monkey Site Supporter+

    NAW, clean up after the trip to the range-then you can clean everything at one time;)
     
  14. ghrit

    ghrit Ambulatory anachronism Administrator Founding Member

    How does NO!! strike to you?
     
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  15. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    Looks like I've been forced to clean up first by default of the ice storm. That's okay, I still have a few parts showing up in the mail, I'll be able to get all of the .357 Sig chambered pistols up and running. It will be interesting to chroney each barrel length; 4 1/2", 4 3/4", 5", and 6". I may have to load more just so I can get enough rounds through each barrel to get a decent average.

    I'm not looking forward to loosing a large amount of cases in the snow. I might have to search out my basement and get an old tarp to try to catch them with.
     
  16. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    @gunbunny ... After reading their info blurb...Am I to assume that the Bayou bullets require no lube?
     
  17. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    I haven't used any lube *but* I've only loaded .380 ACP with them. The oglive is a little too shallow to allow them to be loaded in the .357 Sig. I have some Noslers and Hornady bullets on the way, I'll probably get them Mon or Tues. I'll post my .380 ACP results in my other thread, where it should be.

    I wish they made a bullet that was compatible with .357 sig, I would like to see how fast you can push the poly coated cast lead before you see any leading. And, of course, they would be far cheaper than the Hornady XTPs.
     
  18. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    I use a 40 sizer first on Sigs then proceed to use the 357 sizer. Makes it easier. As you place your boolits check them individually to make sure they are tightly crimped. Like some others I do not have a Sig launcher yet but have an ample supply already loaded and waiting patiently--lol.
     
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  19. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    I finally got a chance to get to the Gunbunny Secret Ballistics Testing Center today, and got to relieve a lot of pent up pressure. Mixed results, though.

    all in line.

    Mrs. Gunbunny was shooting some 230gr Hornady XTPs out of the Glock 21, but the velocity spread was from 760 fps to 850 fps. She had no problems with it, however, and was getting good 3" groups at 25 yards.

    A box of American Eagle .357 Sig 125gr FMJs averaged 1400fps out of the longer 5.32" barrel. Mrs. Gunbunny got a chance to shoot her G23 frame/G22 slide monstrosity and enjoyed it. The recoil wasn't necessarily more or less than the .45ACP, it was just different. Anyway, I am relieved she likes shooting it.

    P3080006 (684 x 912).

    I started off around 1400fps with my 95gr XTPs w/ 11.5gr Blue Dot, but only managed to get to 1740fps all the way up at 12.9gr Blue Dot. There was a slight sign of higher pressure at the 0.2gr over max book value load; the primer was slightly flattened, the faint rectangle outline of the striker hole of the breech face, and an ever so tiny striker drag mark.

    I've seen worse out of factory .40 S&W cartridges.

    The thing that got me, was around 12.6gr of Blue Dot, I began to notice the muzzle flash during the day. It only got worse the higher the amount of Blue Dot that was loaded. The snow in front of me was sprayed with unburned powder for twenty feet downrange.

    Even with the 6" barrel, I was still getting the same velocity as the 5.32" barrel at this max load. It seems I need a slightly faster burning powder than Blue Dot, if I want to get any more velocity than 1740fps. I like the way the 124gr bullets felt; they were going out of the barrel at 1400 some fps, which in and of itself isn't a small feat.

    With the bullets that just arrived this week (125gr Nosler and Hornady) I think I'm going to concentrate on getting them faster than the factory American Eagles. That seems to be where everyone else loading the .357 Sig is doing, and I see why now. That bullet weight is just more efficient in this cartridge.

    Dog-gonnit, I din dun shot muh Chroney! Twice! I had it laying on the bench, no tripod or pistol rest. I hit the rear skyscreen just enough to gouge the plastic a little bit, and bend the rear metal back a bit. Luckily, it still works. I guess I was getting a little tired of squatting to shoot under the diffusers.

    chroney down.

    After the second time (same place) I packed it up because there was NO way I was going to get lucky again- it was going to get demolished. The only good part was, that Mrs. Gunbunny (after exhausting all of her .45's) was getting cold and bored from watching me shoot. She went home and missed the carnage. She doesn't know, and I'm not going to tell her.

    Next time, if I can't set it up with a tripod at a height that I can't shoot through it in a natural position with my pistol rest, I'm not going to set it up.

    Anyway. As for the Glock 42, I really liked the Bayou Bullets 105gr poly coated cast flat points. They impacted a good 6 inches lower than the 95 XTPs, so if I decide to keep with this load (trying to emulate Buffalo Bore's awesome .380 ACP load) I might have to get a shorter front sight and a taller rear. That is, if they make them yet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  20. gunbunny

    gunbunny Never Trust A Bunny

    I loaded the 124gr Nosler JHPs the other day on a progressive press, using -06's advice by resizing and depriming with a .40 S&W die. I then used the .357 SIG resizer with the decapping pin removed.

    I wound up using all four of the available stations, I now wish I could have a fifth so I could add a collet factory crimp die that Lee makes. It gives a much more consistent crimp in case I use different casings that have a slightly longer or shorter overall length.

    They are loaded with 10.2gr of Blue Dot. I'm almost out of Blue Dot, and would like to try Power Pistol, but none of the local FFLs had any. I looked on gunbroker, but I refuse to pay $98 for a pound of powder. It might be easier to just get more Blue Dot. Unique would work, theoretically, but is definitely not the powder needed to supply the velocities I'm looking for.

    Anyway, I'll give these a try this weekend.
     
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