the Islamic world must have nuc-yool-ler weapons

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CATO, Jun 11, 2012.


  1. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Are you calling Iraq or AFG "lost"?

    I believe that is yet to be determined. Looking quite good in IZ, though.
     
  2. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    Define "lost" and "won." What is the measurable objective in the sandbox? At what point can we say "we met our objectives, this war is won, we are pulling out?"

    Generally, the sign of victory is when the other army surrenders. Given this will not happen because we are not fighting a traditional army, what constitutes "victory?"
     
    Yard Dart and tulianr like this.
  3. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    Whether we win or lose depends on our objectives going into the conflict, and what unexpected fallout is realized following the conflict.

    You can win a fight with an individual, but only if you utterly destroy him. The same holds true for conflicts involving nations. If you punch a guy in the nose and he stumbles away bleeding, you may rightly assume that you have won the encounter. Later that night, when he throws a molotov cocktail through your window, burns down your house, and kills your family in the process, you can hardly claim that you actually won the encounter. What you do to the guy when you catch him is practically a moot point, you have been damaged to the degree that nothing you do to him will adequately compensate you.

    The Afghanistan conflict is an example. No, not the conflict that started in 2002; the one that ran from 1979 to 1989. The one that was a proxy war between the United States and the Soviet Union - Charlie Wilson's War. America wasn't fighting Afghanis then, we were fighting the Soviet Union, in Afghanistan, using Afghanis and other Middle Eastern peoples in our efforts. The Soviets were ground down by the persistence of the Afghani "freedom fighters" and American weapons and money. They pulled out of Afghanistan, their military beaten by a third world nation. We had won this Cold War battle. We were victorious.

    But we didn't clean up our mess, and we weren't real careful who we gave money and weapons to during the conflict. We didn't help Afghanistan to become a viable country, and years of civil war and violence followed. How much of it is our fault is debatable, but what happened next is not. The Taliban gained ascendency in Afghanistan, gave a safe harbor to AlQaieda, which we had helped to fund and develop through proxies during our Cold War battle with the Soviets, and 9/11 occurred.

    Did we really win that conflict with the Soviets?

    Can we see the future well enough to say that we have won in Iraq, or Afghanistan, today? We can say that we have accomplished our objectives. There is no doubt that our military is capable of defeating any military force that the peoples of either country could send against it. But can we actually WIN? A good subject for a debate.

    Did our country win during the Vietnam conflict? Did we win in Beirut? Did we win in Somalia? Did we win in Bosnia? Our military was never defeated in any of those conflicts, but did we WIN? Our military can only accomplish objectives handed to it by our civilian leaders, they can't WIN wars any longer, in this multi-polar world.

    Our policies can, I believe, WIN wars and conflicts; but we first have to have a coherent policy, that is capable of delivering a win. The foreign policy that has been pursued by our nation for the past couple of hundred years is not a policy capable of delivering to us a win, because our policy has left chaos scattered in our wake, which eventually comes back to bite us squarely in the butt.

    As long as we continue to talk about liberty and self determination, and not actually implement policies which are true to our words and lofty ideals, we will continue to win battles and lose wars.

    Americans lofted up the ideals of "all men are created equal" and "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" during the 1700s, while embracing slavery until 1865.

    President Wilson lectured the world on the absolute right of peoples' self determination, and then our nation calmly stood by while our European allies carved up the third world into their empires following World War I.

    Our first unofficial advisers to Vietnam went there assisting the French in their reclamation of their French Indochina empire. The French were smart enough to leave. We stuck around.

    In 1941, America and her allies occupied Iran, and forced the leader of Iran, Reza Shah, to abdicate when he objected. We placed his son Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on the throne, because he was more pliable. When the people overthrew Pahlavi in 1953, the CIA organized a coup and deposed the popular leader, and reinstated Pahlavi. It mattered little to us that Pahlavi was falsely imprisoning and torturing his people. We won. Yeah, that worked out well for us.

    During the Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988) America supported Iraq, and its leader Saddam Hussein, with a massive infusion of money, weapons, and intelligence. It mattered little us that Hussein was a brutal dictator, who was butchering his own people. Iran got a bloody nose and had to sue for peace. We won. That decision didn't come back to bite us in the arse at all.

    The point I'm trying to make in this rambling essay is that we can WIN militarily, or economically, on the world stage, but end up losing in the long run. Until we match our military objectives and our foreign policy to our lofty ideals, ashes will continue to be our breakfast.
     
  4. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    I would have to say Tulianr that you said it well as I don't have anything much to follow up with brother!! We can not achieve victory without aligning our political/foreign policy and military goals, everything is futile and expends good men in the field of battle for an undefined objective that is not achievable!!
     
    tulianr likes this.
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