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The Three Horsemen of the Apocalypse?

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by Konna, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. Konna

    Konna Monkey+

    Are there only Three Horsemen in the Revelation of John the Divine?

    Revelation 9:17-18 (King James Version)
    17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
    18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

    Verse 9:18 begins with “By these three”. This obviously does not fit in with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalyse as proposed in Chapter 6 of the Revelation. Why did the editors of the New King James Version add the word “plagues” after “By these three”? Did they want to hide the inconsistencies in the extant Revelation? The editors of the New King James Version even italicized their added word “plagues”! However, “By these three plagues” is an obvious non sequitur.

    Revelation 9:18 (New King James Version)
    18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

    It is clear that the (Three) Horsemen of the Apocalypse caused the fire, smoke and brimstone. Verse 9:18 has nothing to do with plagues. Since when do plagues have mouths? It doesn’t make any sense!

    There are many Theologians who interpret the White Horse as Jesus Christ. The suggestion according to A.S. is that Jesus Christ was indeed revealed in the First Seal but was not on a horse. The Three Horsemen of the Apocalyspe would therefore consist of the Three Horsemen revealed in the Second, Third and Fourth Seal.

    Many will say that this is not enough evidence to question the validity of the extant Revelation. To these people I suggest to also take a look at verses 22:18-19.

    Revelation 22:18-19 (King James Version)
    18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    According to A.S.: These verses contain a curse upon those who would dare to make any changes to the book! These two verses contain the threat of dark arts, which is pure sorcery. This contradicts many of the warnings against sorcery and all forms of dark arts that appear throughout the Bible. These two verses, in and of themselves, should have alerted any thinking theologian that something is very wrong with the extant version of the Revelation.

    Incidentally, in the case that verses 22:18-19 are indeed the word of god as revealed to his servant John the Divine, then the editors of the New King James Version as well as many other bible editors are in deep trouble, as they added the word “plagues” to the Revelation. Ironically, this would add plagues unto them according to verse 22:19.

    Is this part of the Original Revelation?

    “And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder. And I saw, and behold Jesus, majestically radiant, and clothed in white raiment and he had a sword; and a warrior's protective helmet was given unto him.

    And he opened the second seal. And there went out a rider in brown raiment on a horse that was light chestnut brown: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

    And when he opened the third seal I beheld, and lo another rider in black raiment on a black horse; and he that sat on him held in his hand a black lantern that shineth not.

    And he opened the fourth seal. And I looked, and behold a rider in silvery-grey raiment upon a grey horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    And three of the riders had with them huge armies. The army led by the rider on the brown horse was exceedingly strong and fresh. The rider on the black horse fell to the ground, as if dead. Then cometh the rider in the silvery-grey raiment to lift up the black rider. The black rider and his army mingled with the silvery-grey army led by the rider in silvery-grey raiment. Together, they fought against the rider in brown raiment and its army. The army of the silvery-grey rider and the army led by the rider in black raiment were determined yet tired. As the brown, black and silvery-grey armies engaged in battle, Jesus calmly watched on.”
  2. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    About 1700 years ago folks came together that were much more dedicated, knowledgeable, and with a much better grasp of the language, customs, and society to select what Books to go into our Bible. I am not mentally prepared or capable of contradicting their decisions nor am I able to discuss at depth things that may or may not have already happened. Many think that most of the Revelation given to John has already happened, some that it is happening, and some that most of it is yet to come. Either way or any combination of them will not be solved by our delving into them. What is vitally important is that we be ready when the ball starts rolling both physically, mentally, and most importantly--spiritually. If we are prayed up, forgiven, and have our course set with the approval stamp of the Holy Spirit then all that will happen or can happen will be of no avail. We will not be swayed by the unleashing of unnatural or Acts of God happenings. We will not be surprised when false messiahs appear no matter how convincing they are. And, we will not be frightened at the earth's, sky's, and heaven's upheavals. They will only be signs of His second coming.
  3. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    there are many issues with the selection of the current bible... Christs child hood is missing as are books written by his brother (James the lessor) and other books that help frame the context of the bible... they can be found in the Pseudepigrapha... interesting reading...
  4. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I am really have a hard time trying to understand your reasoning and the point you are trying to make. The so-called "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" are found in Rev. 6:1-8.

    The Revelation describes 3 judgments. The 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls of wrath. Each of these 3 sets of 7 are separate events. The opening of the seals, opened by Christ, as he is the only one found worthy, is the opening of the judgment period. In these seals the Horseman ride forth to begin the judgment of mankind.

    The first horseman is on a white horse, but he cannot be Christ as it is he who opens the seal to release this horseman. The white horseman is given a crown, signifying a ruler, and he goes forth to conquer.

    The next horseman rides a red horse and he is given power to take peace from the earth.

    Next comes the black horse and its rider has a balance in his hand and he brings scarcity of food.

    And finally the pale horse carries its rider, Death to slay a fourth part of the earth through war, famine, and wild beasts.

    These judgments are the beginning of sorrows when God takes his restraint from the earth and allows evil to reign unchecked. The horsemen "bring" war, which is followed by famine, and this followed by disease. This is many theologians believe the rise of the anti-Christ and his armies sweeping to power over the whole world.

    This is believed by many to be "The Great Tribulation" period that pre-wrath tribulationists believe is a period of testing where all men will decide to take the mark of the beast or reject it. This period culminates in the 6th seal with a great earthquake. This is believed to be the time of the Rapture. Just after this John sees a great multitude "which no man could number," gathered before the throne. An elder tells him that these "are they that come of the great tribulation and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the lamb".

    After the 7th seal there is quiet for some time, then the next judgment begins. But these 7 trumpets are a judgment on those who remain, the ones who take the mark of the beast and who reject Christ. This is the beginning of their punishment. This is described in Rev. chapter 8.

    The 7 trumpets begin Gods judgment on the unrepentant. The 1st trumpet sounds in Rev. 8:7 and hail, and fire mixed with blood rains down on the earth and 1/3 of all trees and grass is destroyed.
    Rev. 8:8 at the 2nd trumpet blast a "mountain" burning with fire lands in the sea. Many believe this is an asteroid or comet. 1/3 of the life in the sea is wiped out and 1/3 of the ships are destroyed.

    Rev. 8:10 the 3rd trumpet has a "star" falling to earth, "burning as a torch" and this star poisons 1/3 of the waters causing many to die. This star is named wormwood. This was not readily understood until the 1980’s when a nuclear plant in Russia exploded and poisoned and killed thousands with radiation. The name of that place we know was "Chernobyl" which in English means "wormwood".

    The 4th trumpet is blown in Rev. 8:12 and a 1/3 part of the sun, moon and stars are darkened.
    (The results of a nuclear winter?)

    Then we skip to Rev. 9:1 to find the 5th trumpet. When again the light of the sun and moon are affected and a scourge of "locusts" is let loose to torment those who are not protected by God.

    Then in Rev. 9:13 the 6th trumpet is sounded and this releases the 4 angels that have been restrained, and they are set loose with an army of 200 million from the "Kings of the east" to slay 1/3 of men left on the earth.

    Many believe that this is describing a vast army from the Asian countries that come to wage war with the forces of the anti-Christ. It is interesting to note that at the time John recorded this vision there were not 200 million people on the planet. China has recently been quoted as saying they could field a 200 million-man army.

    The next few verses, 17 through 21, the ones you are quoting from, describe this army and the means in which they destroy. Many believe this to be an apt description of men riding on tanks. There "Horses" killed by "fire, smoke and brimstone" proceeding out of their mouths.
    And "By these three plaques was a third part of men killed". Try to imagine a first century man describing a 21st century battle. Viewed in this light much of the seemingly mysterious imagery in revelation tends to make sense.

    All these armies are gathered together to the infamous Valley of Har Megedon. This is where the final judgment of God is to be poured out on a wicked people. We find the final trumpet sounded in Rev. 11:15 with the pronouncement that "The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign forever and ever."

    It is after this that the 7 bowls of wrath, the final judgment of God is poured out on the assembled people of the world who have rejected every opportunity to accept the salvation offered by God. The bowls consist of severe sores that break out on men’s flesh, all the surviving life in the seas dies, all the waters become blood, the sun scorches and burns men, the anti-Christ’s kingdom is pitched into darkness and people gnash their tongues in pain, the river Euphrates is dried up allowing the kings of the east to march their armies to Har Megedon. Then the final bowl is poured out with the proclamation that "It is done"

    This is followed by an earthquake the like as never seen before on earth. Mountains are crumbled and islands flee away. Great hailstones weighing 100 pounds fall on the people let alive. The armies are in such fear that they turn on each other and a great slaughter begins.

    This is the chronology of the events in Rev. The passages you are quoting do not have any reference to the 4 horsemen of Rev. 6. And you make a very wild speculation when you claim that Rev 22: 18-19 reference "dark arts". I don’t know where you get that idea. Any bible scholar knows that "curses" are proclaimed throughout scripture as punishment to those who trespass Gods will and commandments. To claim this as "dark arts" is disingenuous at best.

    Then the version of Rev you quote to end your treatise with the question "is this the original Revelation." Is one that I have never heard before in any version of scripture that I have read. I would like to know from what source you are quoting here.

    As to the accuracy of our modern biblical records, there is not a one that is a true word for word translation. That is why every one is a "version". It is impossible to translate word for word the original biblical languages into English. Many Hebrew words have multiple meanings and many have to be guessed at by the context they are used. While many other simply have no English equivalent at all. Obviously this leads to errors. The most obvious case is in the 6th commandment. Most English bibles have the phrase "Thou shalt not kill." Where a more literal translation of the Hebrew word used here would be murder, not simply kill.
    All versions of our English bibles are a transliteration. The copyists would read a verse in the original language and "transliterate" into English what they believed it was saying. This left room for much error and bias to enter into it. And the King James version is heavily biased towards the political state of affairs existing at the time. This is where we get the erroneous teaching of submission to authority as being divinely ordained.

    This is not supported by a study of scripture.

    And the so-called "lost books" and other omitted texts are certainly worth studying. Some are quite obvious later writings that are not biblically accurate and some are highly suspicious, but others such as the book of Jasher and Jubilees are quite supported by scripture and in my opinion should have been included in our modern bibles.

    I hope this clarified some misconceptions for you. The study of scripture and especially prophetic scripture is something that frustrates many. It lends itself to many wild and erroneous interpretations.

  5. jim2

    jim2 Monkey+++


    An excellent post, and a LOT niceer than I would have done.

    I'd like to further state that one has to read scripture with the right heart/spirit. One of self-righteousness or disbelief will lead only to confusion. Some scriptures are concealed, and only The Father will reveal them, not man's mind. A humble prayer for understanding prior to reading The Word will open the mind for understanding.

    The father gives this understanding to all that humbly ask regardless to station in life or intellect. An arrogant mind will find nothing but confusion in The Word, and little if anything will make sense to the carnal mind.

    Father have mercy on us in Christ's name Amen.

  6. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    "For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;but to us who are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

    " Now the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged." ll Corinthians 2:14
  7. Kingfish

    Kingfish Self Reliant

    Well said, Kingfish
  8. cdnboy66

    cdnboy66 Monkey++

    Thank you Chaplain, well said
  9. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    The Bible and Revelation is quite complex. It's right there in front of our eyes, but yet we have a hard time interpreting the prophesy. It has baffle theologians for millenniums. Why?
    These items will help you to understand the Bible more. The knowledge of these are absolutely necessary to under stand the Set Apart Scriptures:
    1) The oldest King James version: This version is un- adulterated by translations. Rev 22:18
    2) The oldest Strong's Concordance: Explains each scripture for clarity
    3) The Israelite Calendar: All prophetic scripture is based on the Israelite calendar by the Sun.
    The Israelite Calendar is indexed to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Jerusalem Israelite time minus 2 hrs 21 minutes = GMT or Universal time. Length of Israelite year = 365.242 days Their year begins at the Autuminal Equinox The Israelite day begins at high noon. The sun transiting the meridian on the Temple Mount. All Israelite Sabbaths are calculated exclusively on this calendar.
    All regular Sabbaths are on the first day of the Israelite week. Sixth intercalary day occurs when equinoctial point advances past high noon. You have to know exactly what the real time and day is. 4) The Maw-Naw': Hebrew for the appointed numbers to help us understand His Word and His Truth. The entire universe was created Maw-naw' correct. Maw-naw' is a primitive root of the Hebrew language meaning to allot officially; qo-desh means to set-apart. All the chapter and verse numbers in the set apart Scripture are arranged to fit this system and this fact gives additional information as to the meaning of each verse. All of the important events in the seven thousand seven-year time period after Genesis Chapter 1, are scheduled so that all three of the Jubilee Cycle numbers are maw-naw correct for the event in question.
    The tremendous value of this structure is that it affords a cross check to the correctness of the information under study. If you are examining a particular Scriptural event for a year on the Israelite Calendar has been determined, the Jubilee cycle numbers will be Maw-naw' correct for that event. Take note, this method is so valuable to correctly understanding the Word of Yahuveh, that the forces of Satan invented a counterfeit, numerology; and the title 26 USC 501 churches don't ever mention anything about this system. In some cases the maw-naw' of a certain verse number will be negative: i.e. a verse numbered 25 might be explaining there is no "forgiveness of sin" for a certain type of person. I will enter these numbers later in this thread.
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