Things that make you go HMMM....

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Witch Doctor 01, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    Hundreds of Park Police guns unaccounted for, report says

    By Dugald McConnell and Brian Todd, CNN
    updated 3:30 AM EDT, Sat June 29, 2013

    (CNN) -- The U.S. Park Police is failing to adequately keep track of its firearms, creating an environment in which weapons are vulnerable to theft or misuse, according to a government report released Friday.
    Due to "a lackadaisical attitude toward firearms management" by commanders, investigators said they found "credible evidence of conditions that would allow for theft and misuse of firearms, and the ability to conceal the fact if weapons were missing."
    In a force of approximately 640 officers, the report says, hundreds of weapons were not properly accounted for. The auditors also allege that the agency has more than 1,400 extra weapons, including 477 military-style automatic and semiautomatic rifles.
    The head of the Park Police officers' union, Ian Glick, said there are shortcomings in the "antiquated system of weapon tracking," but public safety was never put in jeopardy.
    "None of these weapons were ever seized in a crime, or found on someone who shouldn't have one," he said. While the tracking system has its failings, he said, "all the weapons are accounted for. Every weapon, every stick of ammo, everything is accounted for. But it's not accounted for in the National Park Service weapons inventory computer system."
    The National Park Service declined to respond to Glick's specific assertion. But it said it has immediately ordered a complete weapons inventory, to address the "significant, systemic firearms management problems" identified in the report.
    "I have no tolerance for this management failure," said Jonathan Jarvis, director of the National Park Service. He pledged to implement the report's recommendations on record-keeping, and went on to praise the police officers. "The brave men and women of the U.S. Park Police are professionals who put their life on the line every day," he said, "protecting our parks for millions to enjoy."
    The report cited several examples of mishandling of weapons, including two officers it says brought their rifles home with them. But at least one example has come into dispute.
    The audit asserts that a former chief of the Park Police never turned in his handgun, and 10 years after his retirement it was taken from him by an instructor at a qualification course for retired law enforcement officers, who happened to notice the former chief still had government property.
    But the former chief, Robert Langston, rejects the claim, saying he never kept a handgun, he never had one taken away, and he was never asked by auditors about the allegation. The first he heard of it was when he got a call from CNN on Friday morning.
    "Nobody ever confiscated a gun of mine. I would recall that," he said. "Where did they get that?"
    He said he turned in his weapon when he left government service, and showed CNN his paperwork.
    When asked about the contradiction, the inspector general's office said its report was based on Park Police records, and the discrepancy just shows the extent of the agency's record-keeping problems. The National Park Service did not respond to an inquiry about the former chief's paperwork.
    Motomom34 likes this.
  2. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Sounds to me like massive bureaucracy and some liberal media trying to make a story out of nothing. I deal with this kind of stuff everyday. I am constantly getting emails from the Material Management dept asking for clarification for items that they can't find. I have to show them the documentation of where it was returned to warehouse or which well it was used on. I account for everything that arrives to my location and everything that leaves but am constantly having to search my records to prove that I actually received or returned it because they can't find it in their computer system. I have even had them ask me where is the wellhead we sent you a year ago, we have no record of you returning it. Umm, yeah we left that on top of the well we drilled, you know to keep the oil and gas from spraying out. Sheesh. I am frequently in trouble for my sarcastic and irreverent reply emails.
    Cruisin Sloth and STANGF150 like this.
  3. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

    Why does the Park service need military-style automatic and semiautomatic rifles? I have never seen a ranger with one. But I guess it is typical gov't agency. Attention to detail is not their forte'.

    PS- sounds like Minuteman does his job & does it well.
  4. kellory

    kellory An unemployed Jester, is nobody's fool. Banned

    i used to work for a company who did their own books, payroll, and checks. Errors were the norm, mistakes were NEVER in your favor, and they were always a pain to correct.
    i started keeping a work log. It lists every job, job number, times on site and traveling, solo or tandem, and any quick notes about the job to jog my memory, or things i need to remember about that job. (parts needed, quotes given, or customer is a PIA).
    That was started nearly 20 years ago, and three companies back, and i am still doing it. CYA.
    I am the ONLY employee who CAN and WILL tell the boss he is full of crap when he spouts off about a job I was not on, or when the facts are not what they should be.
    I am the only employee who can document my time to my boss, or to a customer, at any time.
    I am the only employee to ever beat the stuffing out of another employee for messing with my work log.

    i train all newbees in paperwork
    Hammerhead and STANGF150 like this.
  5. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    Ditto, my records, to include emails from 3 different systems, still lives in a safe deposit box. I did leak this fact many years ago except I said they lived in a "Safe Place".

    Attempts were made to paper trail me more than once, all failed.

    ME, now drawing a pension from that place>
  6. mysterymet

    mysterymet Monkey+++

    Another thing makes me go hmmm. The whole thing with retires general james cartwright. I think he is being set up.
  7. Yard Dart

    Yard Dart Vigilant Monkey Moderator

    In some National Park locations in metro areas you can justify nothing more than a standard side arm being issued.
    Once you get out here in the West you will not find any .gov such as park rangers, fish and game officers and similar units without long guns. Large aggressive animals can be an everyday possibility in their operational areas and a pistol can not cut it in most cases.

    But there is the potential for criminal incidents requiring something with a little more punch and reach. They all have a long guns in their trunk or rack just like any other police officer if they are doing patrolling, traffic or most any other enforcement duties. We lost a park ranger up here a couple years ago when a man on the run tried to evade a road block at Mount Rainier National Park. The rangers got into a gunfight with the guy, who was heavily armed, and the female ranger was killed. The guy evaded on foot and was later found dead from the elements...
    This is enough for anyone to want to be properly armed in case of incidents like this one example.
    Police Hunt Iraq War Veteran Possibly Connected to Five Different Shooting Deaths | Fox News
    Body of Mt. Rainier Shooting Suspect Found - ABC News
    Report: Assaults increase on rangers, park police |
  8. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    This is one agency, along with Game Rangers that I have no problem with having military style weapons. They are frequently in the back country, alone, miles from help and have been known to come across a lot of illegal activities, such as large scale marijuana operations, hidden meth labs etc. All guarded by bad guys with full auto weaponry. This isn't your Ranger Rick welcoming you into Yosemite National Park. Now the ones I have a problem with having those type of weapons are the IRS, DHS, FEMA Etc.
    Airtime, BTPost and Yard Dart like this.
  9. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    There is absolutely NO Reason, for a Civilian Law Enforcement Officer to posses a Fully Automatic, or Select Fire, Weapon, Period. You can NOT come up with a valid Senerio, where it is appropriate for Civilian Law Enforcement, to need a Fully Automatic, or Select Fire Weapon, here in the USA. There has NEVER been, in the History of the USA, since WWII, that a Legally Owned, and Possessed, NFA Weapon, has EVER been used to perpetrate a Crime, NEVER. These are the SIMPLE FACTS, and there is NO DISPUTE concerning them, even from the Gun Grabbers. They must use OTHER, well rehearsed, stratagem, and BS, to further their Agenda, because these FACTS are undisputed. They have come up with a NEW Definition called "Assault Weapon" which basically has been defined as "an Evil Looking, Semi-automatic Rifle, that fires Standard Hunting, and Target Shooting Ammunition". It is absolutely NO DIFFERENT, than the venerable Browning Semiautomatic Hunting Rifle, of the same Caliber. No One, Not even the likes of Babs Feinswien, or Chuckie Schummer has EVER proposed that those Browning Rifles, need to be Banned. These are the FACTS. They are UnDisputed. Now you can make up your OWN minds, on how you view the Gun Control ISSUE. My considered Opinion.... YMMV.....
    HK_User likes this.
  10. HK_User

    HK_User A Productive Monkey is a Happy Monkey

    FWIW, Full autos in the wilderness is beyond me. Now a good high grade semi auto in .308 with a scope seems to be the least I'd want as an LEO. That and a 12 gauge and a service pistol. Often best to cover your flank as you retreat and wait for back up. Unless death to an innocent is in the works. Still better to contain and conserve your ammo.
    tulianr likes this.
  11. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    Along the Mexican border is about the only place that I could understand LEOs needing and using an automatic weapon. If you run into some of the Zitas or other cartels down there, many of whom use former military members and military weaponry, an automatic weapon might be a fine thing to have. Using an automatic weapon in a populated area is dangerously negligent, and using one in the forest is great way to waste ammunition and destroy some trees.
    Yard Dart, kellory and HK_User like this.
  12. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    Nope, Tulinar, I fervently disagree.... In such a Senerio as you describe, the LEO is much better off with a semi-auto clip feed weapon with a good long Bull Barrel, and engage these miscreants at long Range, in a "One Shot, One Kill", firing pattern, than any kind of Spray & Pray shooting. The LEO just has to be a Better shot than the Bad guys, and I have yet to see, or hear of, a Company, or even Platoon sized Unit of Bad Guys crossing the Boarder, fully Armed. If that was truly the situation then it would be time to station, the 101 st Airborne, down there instead of Boarder Patrol. That is what those folks are trained to deal with, not less than Squad sized incursions. The proof of this can be seen in the LA Bank robbery Case where the Perps were armed with full Auto AK47's, and Body Armor. The LEOs had Shotguns, and Pistols, and YES, they were out-gunned. So they "barrowed" a couple of Bolt Action .308 Winchester Rifles from a local Gun Store, and dispatched the Perps, from Distance. Had these LEOs been issued these same weapons, to their Supervising Sargents, for Trunk Carry in their vehicles, the story would have ended much sooner. In today's world, with every Cop Shop sporting. SWAT Team, with at least one designated Sniper, equipped appropriately, this situation, just doesn't come up.... There is absolutely NO NEED for LEOs to have fully Automatic, or Select Fire Weapons... If the situation ever came to that point, then it is time for The Governor to Declare Marshal Law and bring in the National Guard, which already have those Weapons.... My Opinion..... YMMV....
  13. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    I agree that given a choice, I would prefer to deal with bad guys at a long distance with a good long barrel weapon. Those actually trained in the use of automatic weapons (and I can only hope that they give our LEOs at least a couple of lessons before handing them an automatic weapon) will acknowledge that "spray and pray" shooting does little good. An automatic weapon is best used to keep an enemy's head down while maneuvering to outflank him, or to keep his head down while you break contact, or as a final protective fire when being overrun is almost a certainty. Any other use of a small caliber automatic weapon is suspect (.50 cal against vehicles is another matter entirely). If an LEO is surrounded, outgunned, and out of range of immediate backup (a situation that can easily happen along the border) I could see the usefulness of an automatic weapon; not to "engage and destroy the enemy," but to put their heads down long enough for him to get the heck out of there and get some help.

    What I am considering is the type of encounters covered in this article: Another armed incursion
    on U.S.-Mexico border
    Another armed incursion on U.S.-Mexico border

    An American law enforcement officer and news crew in Texas have witnessed another armed incursion into the United States by men dressed in Mexican army attire, the second such incident in just two weeks.

    As before, several men dressed in Mexican military garb appeared to violate the international boundary, in Hudspeth County, Texas, some 50 miles east of El Paso, local affiliate KFOX-TV reported today. There, the U.S.-Mexico border is separated only by a shallow stretch of Rio Grande River.

    The incursion was witnessed by a KFOX news crew and Hudspeth County deputy, photos of which are posted on the affiliate’s website.

    The deputy and news crew were on the scene Tuesday night to film a segment about last week’s incursion, when the law officer noticed more “soldiers” emerge from a clearing on the U.S. side of the border.

    As the deputy and news crew watched, three soldiers emerged into the clearing before one hurried back into the concealment of brush, KFOX reported. But the deputy pointed out other, larger groups of soldiers engaged in a flanking action against him and the news crew, most probably, the deputy believes, in an attempt to figure out what they were doing.

    “They are doing the classic thing, flanking around each side of us and actually coming up into the U.S. and trying to figure out what we are doing; they are looking at us very heavily,” said the deputy, who was not identified in the report.

    At that point KFOX reporter Ben Swann asked, “So I guess it’s time to go?” and the deputy answered, “Yeah, it would definitely be time to get out of here.”

    The deputy chose to vacate the area because he was vastly outnumbered and outgunned, the report said.

    Mexican officials have said their military is forbidden from traveling within three miles of the border, though U.S. border residents have repeatedly spotted mobile patrols of Mexican military units traversing roads that run directly parallel to the international boundary. Because of the stated policy, however, Mexico says the armed men crossing into the U.S. are paramilitary forces loyal to drug-smuggling cartels.

    In last week’s incident, Texas law enforcement officers and Border Patrol agents engaged in an armed standoff with Mexican military personnel and drug smugglers just inside the United States along the Rio Grande. The Inland Valley Daily Bulletin of Ontario, Calif., reported that both Texas law enforcement and the FBI stated nearly 30 American agents were part of the incident.

    Chief Deputy Mike Doyal of the Hudspeth County Sheriff’s Department told the paper Mexican military Humvees were towing what appeared to be thousands of pounds of marijuana across the border into the United States.

    Border Patrol agents called for backup after seeing that Mexican Army troops had several mounted machine guns on the ground more than 200 yards inside the U.S. border – near Neely’s Crossing.

    The deputy involved in this week’s incident said he identified what appeared to be a military vehicle partially concealed in brush near the Mexican “soldiers.”

    “It’s been so bred into everyone not to start an international incident with Mexico that it’s been going on for years,” Doyal told the Bulletin. “When you’re up against mounted machine guns, what can you do? Who wants to pull the trigger first? Certainly not us.”

    Andrea Simmons, a spokeswoman with the FBI’s El Paso office, confirmed the earlier incident, saying, “Bad guys in three vehicles ended up on the border. People with Humvees, who appeared to be with the Mexican army, were involved with the three vehicles in getting them back across.”

    Chris Simcox, president of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, a border watch group that assists authorities in securing the border, said with the latest incident “the government of Mexico once again has demonstrated their contempt for the United States.”

    “It is disgraceful that American citizens, including law enforcement, live under the threat of a foreign army that enters our country at will,” he added. “It took the murder of 3,000 Americans on American soil for the government to take international terrorism seriously. With the Mexican army, drug smugglers, human traffickers and terrorists able to cross our borders with impunity, it seems that only the mass murder of Americans living on our border will cause the government to take decisive action to secure our borders.”

    In comments to KFOX, the deputy involved in this week’s incident said, “If it’s going to take a bunch of us getting killed down here on the river to show everybody that this is a problem, then its going to happen, one of these days it will happen.”
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2015
  14. VisuTrac

    VisuTrac Ваша мать носит военные ботинки Site Supporter+++

    Heck, just install some area denial weaponry. Mark the area such and call it a day.
    STANGF150 and tulianr like this.
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