Thou Shalt not kill ( is so often MIS understood )

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by OldDude49, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. OldDude49

    OldDude49 Just n old guy

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  2. T. Riley

    T. Riley Monkey+++

    Good Video. The definition I like the best is "The shedding of innocent blood."
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  3. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    Interesting... I think they have a huge amount of work to do to get the word out and a bigger job to convince people. For me, it sounds reasonable and logical so I'm convinced. It also explains why the bible has so much violence and war in it because 'killing' is not 'murder.'
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  4. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    The video is good however that are a group that do not believe in morality .
    These wil argue just for the sake of distracting the point, not looking for truth, but preferring excuses to justify their position.
    Then also we have these that make themselves judge and executioner taking vengeance on their own or firing up a crowd for the sake of taking vengeance . we see a lot of that now days.
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  5. VHestin

    VHestin Farm Chick

    Book of Joshua talks about that in the section on cities of refuge...war is one thing, but in times of peace, if you did not commit premeditated murder, but something happened where you were responsible for the death of someone, you could go to one of those cities of refuge and you were not allowed to be killed(by the family of the dead one) until there was a trial. If you were found innocent of premeditated murder, you could live in that city until the high priest dies, then you could go back to your old life. If you were found guilty,, you were executed.
  6. Legion489

    Legion489 Rev. 2:19 Banned

    The problem with the Bible is, it was written in Aramaic, then translated to Hebrew, to Latin, to Greek and THEN to English. The Greeks have dozens of words for various things, such as "love". In Greek there is love for friend, wife, lover (separate words for male to male and female to female and male to female), children, etc., etc.

    Kill is pretty much the same: murder, execute, accident, illness etc. Witch is another one. Originally it meant "poisoner". Thou shall not allow a POISONER to live. Who were the "poisoners" when the Bible was being translated? Healers, old women who gave out herbs, etc., so the term became "witch". Many old languages lack things like "to", "here", "was", etc. as well. The Norse sagas are increadably hard to translate because they lack so many words we take for granted to tell us who/what/where/how/why/when. Many of the words do not translate from Aramaic and Hebrew as the meanings have been lost. For example, f--k originally meant "to plant". "I am going to f--k the wheat field" meant "I am going to plant the wheat field", but the meaning has changed over the years.

    So some of the words either don't work or the meaning has been totally lost as the word dropped out of use a 1000 (or 2000) years ago or was adopted from some other dead language that would have been understood at the time. An example of this would be the measurements used. In Egypt there is actually a carving of a dozen different weights and measures used by the various cultures/countries so the builders would be all on the same page when building: THIS is the same as this, this, this, this, etc.
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  7. Motomom34

    Motomom34 Monkey+++

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  8. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grudge Monkey

    I agree, Lost in translation is apparent with the Bible and it's translations as well as the readers own interpretations. People didn't speak the same way we do these days, and we have differing words for things today that would baffle those of the past. What I do know is the basic human ideal is to Love others as Christ loved his followers, treat every one with respect and dignity, even those whom you you would have no reason to, and to avoid the taking of a life.
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  9. fmhuff

    fmhuff Monkey+++

    Anyone who understands that the God of the Bible changes not will understand that what is acceptable in His eyes does not change either. Yes Jesus said to love "one another" and our covenant as Christians is not under the Mosaic law according to the scripture itself but in the propitiation (big word) of Christ and through him we find our standing and life before God the Father.

    However and this is a big (non legalistic) however our responsibilities outlined in the scripture does not absolve us of protecting ourselves, our family, our neighbors, our community and at times our Nation. A man who defends with whatever force necessary to ward off an attack is innocent not only in a just law but in the eyes of God himself. What enemy planted the seed of confusion to the contrary. It says in the Word that God is a warrior and the leader of warriors. We made in the image of God should be no less. As much as is possible we are to be at peace with all men but when someone is coming at you with a knife, club, gun etc that option is out the window and you have a responsibility to respond. A man who does not take care of and defend his own as it says in the Word is worse than an infidel (non believer).

    I did not always believe "Christian men" were to be this way because most of the churches I attended avoided the issue and were content to have docile, passive sheep and not contend with warrior saints and all the messiness that ensues. Its just that Godly men were meant to be so much more than they are being taught. Once your eyes are opened it's hard to go back asleep.
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  10. Tempstar

    Tempstar Old and crochety Site Supporter+

    Before the KJV bible, God was still Yaweh, Adultery meant to make impure (adulterate,race mixing), and yes number six was do not murder. Killing was a big part of even the KJV bible (the Phillistines, Goliath) and sacrifices. I'd love to come back in another 300 years and see what interpretations have become.

  11. Meat

    Meat Monkey+++

    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  12. VHestin

    VHestin Farm Chick

    Honestly, regardless of whether I'll get in trouble with the Powers That Be or not, my view is that I'm gonna do what I have to protect my family, and that's all that there is to it.
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  13. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Ezekial 4:12 The error is also context, not just merely translation.... Ezikiel describes the siege of Jeruselem as purportedly prophesied earlier in the OT. Ezekiel 4:12 doesn't establish a prohibition on cooking, using human excrement, but describing the dire straits that Israelites faced when they didn't give enough due homage to the big guy in the sky...being forced to cook using ritually unclean fuel is as low as it gets for folk at that time and place. Baking food by ritually impure means in the sight of the people (in one's community) would have been the ultimate act of shameful disgrace.

    Quoting scriptural passages as proof texts to interpret current events is a risky business...but, unfortunately, all too many resort to it. Many bible texts are referring to things where the target audience lived in past times, and were specifically tailored to that audience...not as a portmanteau passage that can be opened up and used in contexts in times and places that were never intended.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  14. T. Riley

    T. Riley Monkey+++

    You ought to be good.
  15. Lone Gunman

    Lone Gunman Draw Varmint!

    Back in my college days when I was studying at a Presbyterian Synod school we were often reminded that, 'murder' — not 'kill' — is the more correct translation of Exodus 20:13. So, what's the hard part? That would be both: Deuteronomy 32:35, and Romans 12:19!
  16. T. Riley

    T. Riley Monkey+++

    Revenge vs Self Defense? Justice vs Revenge? Premeditation vs Protecting? I see no conflict.
  17. Lone Gunman

    Lone Gunman Draw Varmint!

    What are you saying? Revenge is NOT self-defense; neither is self-defense the same thing as revenge.

    According to the Holy Bible IT IS NOT GIVEN TO ANY MAN POSSESSED OF JUDEO-CHRISTIAN KNOWLEDGE AND PERSUASION to avenge himself outside of the strict confines of God’s Sacred Law. In fact King David actually offered praise to God and thanked God for sending out Abigail and, thereby, preventing him from taking deadly personal revenge against Nabal, her vainglorious husband, and his entire household after Nabal had grievously insulted David in public and attempted to return evil unto him for the good that David had done.

    Neither is revenge, necessarily, the same thing as justice.

    Look! Mere mortals that we are, it is not given to any biblically trained and cognizant man to aggressively seek justice for himself; besides, whenever a man seeks his own vengeance he is also, simultaneously, demonstrating that he does NOT trust God. (Yes, he is!)

    Anyone who truly believes that GOD IS JUST does NOT need to seek his own vengeance. ‘Jehovah’ or ‘Yahweh’, (The great, ‘I AM’; or ‘I AM THAT WHICH I SHALL PROVE TO BE’ of the Holy Bible) has repeatedly sworn BY HIMSELF that vengeance belongs strictly to HIM; and He alone has an exclusive divine right to both seek and exercise it.

    (Remember: ALL life ultimately belongs to Whom? To God — That is Who, and to no one else: Not to you, not to me, and not to anybody else outside of God, Himself.)

    Therefore, anyone who believes that the Word Of God is true must — out of both obedience to the Will Of God, AND spiritual necessity to his own personal self — stay his hand, and even stay his mind, from seeking revenge. Want revenge? OK, then according to the Holy Bible all you’ve got to do is wait. Wait, and do nothing more!

    I mean how could any honest or Christian person even so much as post on the internet AND simultaneously absorb all of the petty mean-spirited nonsense that is bound to occur in cyberspace IF he does not believe in two precise biblical quotes:

    (1) God is the owner, distributor, and disciplinarian of karmic revenge; and (2) the Recording Angels will, sooner or later, require a full accounting from a man for his every single ‘idle’: word, thought, and deed. (Stated in another way: No one — NO ONE — is able to escape from the absolutely inevitable karmic consequences of his own personal behavior.)

    The fact should be obvious to any true believer: Every time a man takes revenge for himself he is also, and simultaneously, demonstrating a severe lack of personal faith in God; and he is showing his core disbelieve in God's clearly stated Word. Believe in God? Then don’t actively seek to take revenge. Instead, it is sufficient for a man to simply ask God to exercise His own divine judgment in much the same way as David does throughout the entire book of Psalms!

    Finally, ‘premeditation vs. personal protection’? This dialectic comparison is actually a confusion in terms — a non sequitur to the specific topic being discussed. ‘Premeditation’, in and of itself, is generally allowed. The only question, the only variable, is premeditation of what? ‘Personal protection’ is also allowed — Even diligent personal protection! (Christ, Himself, has said so!)

    To strike, even preemptively as King David did against Rabbah, is generally allowed; but to strike with either: extreme anger, intense personal outrage, or even with excessively strong self-will? All I can tell you is that I, personally, think these sorts of behavior are, somewhat literally, ‘skating on thin spiritual ice’. You have to be careful, be familiar with the scriptural precedents for ‘an avenger’, and know what you’re about!

    All things considered, these are NOT easy questions to correctly solve. The governing biblical principles must be known and applied judiciously to each particular situation. The justice dispensed by men is often imperfect; however, the justice of God is, both, absolutely ideal AND absolutely perfect — A thought which has, quite literally, often scared ‘the hell ’ out of me!

    Why? Because I believe there is more than one way in which every man must pay for his sins: The first (most obvious and readily apparent) way is physical; and the second (less obvious, but more durable and agonizing) is spiritual.

    Personally, I see no reason why it would be impossible for a man to spend the remainder of his life in prison — like, say, Richard Speck — physically paying for his crimes; the very same crimes that he will also be required to pay for, again, in an even stricter spiritual sense after he physically dies. (Akin to the Holy Bible’s ‘first and second deaths’!)

    Surely, nobody imagines that Ted Bundy's single physical execution by the State of Florida, in any way, ‘balances the scales of divine justice ’ or genuinely pays for Ted Bundy’s numerous multiple murders — Right? (How could it!)

    Then there’s the final punishment of Satan the devil and his demons who are soon to be, ‘cast into Tartarus’ for all of the many centuries and hundreds of millions of murders which they have, both, inspired and committed! However, it is less than obvious that ‘Tartarus’ is NOT comprised of a single solitary punishment; instead, it consists of an ongoing multitude of severe disciplinary punishments — All of which have been personally earned and are judicially deserved!

    As far as I'm concerned this is a complex topic that, more often than not, is best revealed through the insightful spiritual revelations of (I think, 'gifted ') divine inspiration. The only thing I'm 100% certain of is that, ultimately, nobody ever gets away with anything! The universe in which we live out our short, too often deceitful, and excessively covetous lives is, on a greater scale, far too well ordered for that to ever happen.

    (Remember: ‘Not a sparrow falls to the ground that your Father does not know!’)
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  18. OldDude49

    OldDude49 Just n old guy

    One thing about revenge that few think upon... from your view someone may have done something to you...

    and you feel a need to repay it...

    rethink that... sometimes what you think is... is NOT what you think is... your perception could be clouded...

    the person may be completely innocent of doing what you THINK they did...

    and should you carry out your revenge... you would be in the wrong...

    and be punishing someone that is actually innocent of any wrong doing...
  19. T. Riley

    T. Riley Monkey+++

    Someone murders my child. Am I justified in killing him? Is that justice or revenge? Suppose he is tried, convicted and executed? Most would say that is Justice. What is the difference if I do it or the State? Am I protecting my remaining family if I do it or is that premeditated murder? I could not live in peace with a person who murdered my child. If the State did not or was not around to dispense justice, I would and do not thing I would be wrong in the eyes of either man or God.
  20. OldDude49

    OldDude49 Just n old guy

    Depends on when and how I should suppose?

    If you shot and killed them while they were committing the act then probably justified...

    If you went out and hunted em down after they did it then it would probably be considered revenge...

    not my definition mind you... that is pretty much how the court/legal system see's it...

    IIRC... and I am no lawyer so best to check for yourself n get it right...

    defense of self and/or an innocent... then do what ya must...

    thing is there has to be an immediate threat...

    as soon as they try to run away/retreat... the threat stops... and you must stop...

    the thing is there are so many things that affect this that even a lawyer could have trouble explaining it...

    but those are the laws of man... if ya do some reading the laws of God can be different... like IIRC there is a verse that tells you if you KNOW that someone is going to kill you then it says rise up and kill them first... ? I may not have the context correct here though so? I should probably reread that part...
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