TS has HTF...a question, what would you do?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LondonCalling, Jun 1, 2008.

  1. LondonCalling

    LondonCalling Monkey++

    We Are at post TSHTF.
    Location for arguments sake is USA.
    You location (retreat) has been found for arguments sake!
    You the reader are going to be referred to, in this question as the have’s, I am the have nots.

    Rights lets get going,
    Complete TSHTF has taken place, the preppers (have’s) have all started to make their way with their friends & family to their retreat.
    Each one looking out for each other.
    Everyone has a place within the group and everyone has a job to do.

    You have planned for this ..it has finally happened, but never in your wildest dreams did you imagine it was going to happen this quickly, never did you imagine that it was going to turn society against each other so easily.

    You stop off at various locations to pick up supplies that were hidden along the route to your retreat, in the event that this would happen.

    You, your family and friends throughout journey listen to radios and hear of the unspeakable things that are happening right now, in major cities and towns, you all think “how lucky you are to have got out” women and children within your group are in tears, they have left friends behind, "are they gonna be ok?, a million and one questions are asked, are we gonna be ok dad? Will we see so & so again? Whats happening? (you get the drift)."

    Along the route you pass people who are thinking this is all going to be over in a dayor two, the lights will come back on and we will be back to normal?

    You are running on adrenalin , the practise pays off, you are out of the immediate danger zone, but you are not yet safe!
    Money virtually overnight has become worthless..the man who stashed away paper money is shortly going to become the Richest Man in the Graveyard!

    You arrive at your retreat, after a quick recon, again everyone has a place and job to do, they know it off by heart, but the kids and some of the women are still asking the questions, questions you don’t really want to answer!, you have more to think about now.

    A couple of days go by, you are getting updated as much as possible by the radios you managed to stash away, things on the “outside” are looking grim.
    Murder, riots, looting, everything that you EXPECTED (but didnt want to) was happening in the big towns and cities, it was going on right now.
    You are quiet safe in your retreat, you know the lay of the land, the area, the do’s and donts, you have been over the what if’s so many times!

    One of the look-outs report a vehicle approaching, everyone is now on guard, the vehicle comes right upto your retreat, your immediate response kicks in, and a number of questions race thru your mind, who are they? what do they want? are they armed?.
    However it turns out to be a family (me), (the have-nots) mum, dad and two kids, the kids are teen and a young adult 19 for eg.

    You have contact with the "have nots", you establish the following, they are NOT a threat, they are unarmed, they are genuine, thay have enough supplies if left on their own to last the family for around 1 month.
    You know that this is going to last longer than a month, your instincts are telling you that, you and your group are much better prepared than the "have-nots"...both you and the "have-nots" know this!

    However they are scared, as are people within your group, they don’t want to be left on their own they want the comfort and safety of being a part of a group…your group.

    Certain instincts are beginning to kick in.
    1) we should help them ..after all there are only four of them, you look at the have-nots children, your own are just the same, scared!!!
    2) but the have-nots dont have any skills to offer the group?
    3) if the have-nots are allowed to stay, they will pick up skills, surely?
    4) although they have only 1 months supply for the family, it could be added to the groups supply?
    5) we cant send them out....to persih...or can we...."dog eat dog"?

    The group decide to hold a meeting on whether to allow the "have nots" family in, or send them on their way.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2014
  2. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Making some assumptions here, that this has been (certainly should have been) discussed beforehand in the tribe. This must not be left to chance or emotional reaction, because it WILL happen. Way too late for the meeting, me thinks.

    We can, and must, given the conditions you outline, send them out. Over night rest, and away they have to go.

    Me and mine come first, devil take the hindmost.
    tacmotusn likes this.
  3. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    This IS THE tough one aint it..I'd want to know how and why "they" found "us"...
    Sent on "their way"they have gained the knowledge of "that bunch "over that hill in "acme county":
    "They've"( that group's) got food,water,women,guns and ammunition, unfortunately that may come back to bite you in the butt ( with5 assaulters to 1 defender odds). I'm NOT implying they should be held or executed.Just something to consider,

    ,I very much agree, that meeting will have had to take place right off.
    Hate to say it but I vote they've gotta' move on,( though I believe modern prisons are the living hell they are because the inmates bring that hell with them and prey upon each other. So we create the world around us). We'd be adding to the hell this family experiences.
    First off: You/we don't know the first thing about their character, whether you will wake up with your own guns pointed at you, and 50 of their "closest friends and family showing up the next day...Or Whether they would turn all your wheat into heffe wiessen in two weeks." ( trust is a big issue with me...)

    "Group dynamics",in a previously established group,"they"willl always be"them" v "us"...
  4. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Great scenario and one that will have to someday be addressed. A plan for this contingincy should be made well in advance.

    The only way to avoid the onslaught of the "have nots" would be to live somewhere in such remote isolation that contact would be avoided. However there are few places left that afford that kind of isolation. The idea of leaving it all behind and living off the land is romantic but as some have found is not practical and very often fatal.

    Some interaction will be neccessary. As the majority of people would hole up in a rural environment.

    As most refugees will have little or nothing materially to offer an evaluation as to thier skills and potential benefit to the tribe would have to be assessed. If nothing else the benefit may be only to increase the size of the tribe.

    In a long term situation eventually the have nots will band together into scavenger tribes and prey on the haves. A defense against MZB's will be paramount.

    So any long term post SHTF preps should include extra clothing, food, and arms for added members.

    But, it would only be prudent to accept a limited number of refugees before they would cease to be a benefit and become a liability.

    So a thorough screening process would be needed. With a determination as to thier character, health, willingness to contribute to and if neccessary defend the tribe.

    Many will not pass this screening and would have to be gently turned away. A few supplies, medical treatment if neccessary and an escort to the outskirts of your AO.

    It would be a time of hard decisions. That is why I have always advocated one leader. A democratic vote for general day to day decisions and for establishing SOP's. But one person to make the immediate decisions, especially life and death ones.

    A good ladder of authority is to have (much like the Native American tribes) different "chiefs" for different funtions. Such as a "chief" who is the leader and ultimate authority when it comes to hunting. He decides where and when to hunt, organizes and leads the hunts. A "war chief" who takes command in any type of tactical situation. He is in charge of the defense of the tribe, of setting watches and patrols, and is the commander in any type of confrontation or battle.

    So to answer you question LC. I would say evaluate the newcomers, and if they have something to offer, if it is only increased numbers, then take them in, assign them duties, arm them, and begin to integrate them into the tribe.

    If you are at your maximum limit then if they appear to be harmless, give them a small amount of food and send them on thier way.

    A walk down memory lane, here are a few threads from our early days. Good reading back on those first few pages. Man we have really grown.





  5. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I would make every effort at getting them to a refugee camp and lend what assistance I can to help. I will not turn my back on those in need, no matter how dire the situation. The one thing that separates man from the rest of the beasts is compassion. While the scenario would equate to being in a life-boat with rationed water and provision, I would not deny a sip to those hanging onto the edge of the raft. God gave us strength and judgment as well as compassion. Hardships may increase with each mouth to feed but those of us that would turn our self-righteous at being prepared backs on the helpless sheep would truly be damned. May god bless us all.
    Gopherman likes this.
  6. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Had a couple of thoughts: If they've got a months worth of supplies:
    That puts them ahead of the average un aware jsp's...
    Unless they stole them from the last group they "pulled" this on...

    Secowboys your response is "heartening" and one I could back...people use the "no laws exist "caveat on alot of these kinda forums, as if right and wrong go away with the comings and goings of law enforcement,I assume we might get a few "kick their ass and take their gas" comments ( I absolutely can't/won't back that).
  7. toemag

    toemag Monkey++

    Sorry M8,

    I would dispatch you and yours on the spot, as you pose a security leak, you have seen us, our equipment, know our direction of travel etc etc. Blood is thicker than water.

    It would be fast, out of compassion, but the results would be the same.

    I don't expect anyone or any other group out there to help me and mine in any way once the do do has hit the fan, I do expect them to try to kill me and mine and pillage our equipment for useful stuff, that they never though they would be needing.

    I still believe that we will be bugging in, and am preparing for such an eventuality.

    I have never seen the refugee's getting a good deal, just look what happened in New Orleans when Katrina swept in.

  8. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    It would depend on the "have not's" condition, Let's for arguments sake say that this family was all extremely overweight, which their are plenty of right now, and they could not concive the concept of manual labor to better themselves and all members of socalled family have a below average IQ. The answer to the above situation is pretty damn obvious.
    Now let's say this family is made up of highly inteligent, well educated individuals that would do whatever it took to better their situation, and would positively compliment your groups overall chances of survival would also be a no brainer.
  9. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    well there's a scary answer (toemag),If I was of a mind set to pillage I sure wouldn't walk up to the front gate and ring the bell..I think "dispatching" a wandering family of civilians is not as easy as the movies might make it appear.Merely turning them back to the road will weigh on most folks conscience..
  10. LondonCalling

    LondonCalling Monkey++

    wow terrific responses!!

    This is of course just a scenario, but it could and will happen at some point?

    In your response you state "This must not be left to chance or emotional reaction, because it WILL happen."
    This was the point that i was trying to make, when, at what point do we become sort of de-sanatized (if thats the right word) to human suffering of any kind, and allow emotions to take over?

    You made an axcellent point about "if not allowing the have-nots into the camp, there is a possibility of the have-nots and their friends turning up later, to try to overtake the retreat."
    After all they have seen the retreat, and its valuble commodities held within its walls.

    You have echoed concerns in a similar way to Ghrit
    "A plan for this contingincy should be made well in advance."
    Having thought about this is IMO feel that this is something that needs to be addressed by "groups" long in advance...just in case the emotions get in the way with positive thinking.

    Also mate cheers for the links im going thru them...

    Both you and i would find it very hard to dissmiss people from our door.
    And again, we would unless the have-nots were "pure-evil looking" we would let our emotions take over from the start.
    For me personally it would be the children that would break my heart.
    It may well turn out to be the wrong thing to do, and could possible lead to my downfall?
    I can honestly understand where everyone is coming from if they decide to turn the "have-nots" away.

    "I would dispatch you and yours on the spot, as you pose a security leak, you have seen us, our equipment, know our direction of travel etc etc. Blood is thicker than water.
    It would be fast, out of compassion, but the results would be the same."
    Understood and appreciated mate.

    "I still believe that we will be bugging in, and am preparing for such an eventuality."
    This is what i intend to do...for a short time?RouteClearence:
    Another excellent point.
    If the Mr & Mrs have-nots are going to be a complete liability to the group from the start, then above compassion there is nothing to offer?

    So from the responses, i gleaned the following:
    In all, we are all compasionate, however, we would tend to the wounded, give them medical if needed and send them on their way?

    But this brings us back to a response echoed in more or less all of them, what if ,after they were sent on their way?

    cheers lads!!! xclnt replies!!!!
  11. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

    Directly after a total melt down I believe this is the only thing that could be done. Because after that months worth of food ran out they would be back and not so nice this time, plus they may bring new found friends that are just as hungry. Or they could tell someone of your location and if you are bugging in as we plan to you can't just pick up your house and move it. We could bug out if needed but I refuse to do it under these conditions/something that can be prevented.

  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    OGM: lets pray it never gets that bad...
    " Mike Oehler" the $50 under ground house guy???Met him once at "Our" annual midwest al renewable energy fest( one coming up soon june 20 and 21st Amhearst wi.).
  13. monkeyman

    monkeyman Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Well, first off I would have a similar group dynamic to what Minuteman mentioned a leader for each area with the 'chain of comand' for each (predetermined who steps up if 'chief' is taken out) although would also incorperate the councils from the native American ways where everyone has a say then it is decided on how things will be done but the chief is in charge of directing the poeple to get it done.

    There would also need to be SOPs (standard operating procedures) already in place that kick in before contact is ever made. To the greatest degre possible the retreat would LOOK shabby and wanting, defenses and numbers as well as gear and supplies would be concealed. So when they get there they dont see the snipers posted, the person makeing contact would be modestly armed with say a side arm and pump shotgun, NOT an uber tactical set up. Now if they are sent on their way then they have less motivation to come back since you seem to be little better off than them and with nothing worth a fight.

    A person who has been preselected (based on ability to size people up well, good poker face and ability to make the hard calls) makes contact (while covered by hidden snipers and other members in tactical positions). The retreat should already be set up with this eventuality in mind so the spot where contact will be made is predetermined to give advantgeto the group, there also needs to be a concealed spot already set up or the person makeing contact to get hard cover within a couple steps if things go bad and be out of the line of friendly fire and have some protection from hostiles as well. Size them up on contact and IF they seem like they are harmless AND may be of benifit (also didnt mention the 'flavor' of S that HTF, but since its even a question will assume it is NOT a biological bug like birdflu or some such as that brings in whole new rules) then there should also be an area pre set at the retreat that is easy to observe/cover/guard from the main house and such (should be there not only for situations like these but also in case it IS a biological SHTF that brings the group in you need a quaranteen area for them to wait long enouph to be sure they are not infecting the group and needs to be where anyone attacking can be picked off by the group). IF they seem like possible candidates you let them know they can take a few days rest from the road and camp there.

    Share meals with them (not the best and eat light as if rationing limited stores and they dont get to see storage areas any time soon. Members go out to do grunt work and see if the Have-nots volunteer to help and if they are helpful. Find out what skills they may have to offer. Find out how they get along and how the children behave (they dont want to stay if they have poorly behaved, lazy, cocky, mouthy teens that they want to survive) and so on.

    If theey have a willingness and ability to help, useful knowledge and dont create friction with the group then they could be spoken with and explained to how the group work, as in that joining dont make them the leaders or whatever and find out if they want to join knowing what will be expected of them in return for membership.

    If they dont want to join up (decent folks still may not like the idea someone else has ABSOLUTE say in particular situations or other particular rules of membership) then they have had their rest and you send them on their way. If its decided that they are not a threat but also not up to the standards of the group or just personalities dont mix but they are not to be added to the group they are sent on their way but also informed that due to security concerns if seen at your gate/AO again they will be deemed a threat and dealt with accordingly. If on contact they are clearly not people the group would benifit from they are sent on with the same warning. If they become agressive in any way at any point or attempt to bypass the gate then they are elimenated on the spot and their supplies pay the group for the trouble of dispatching them and discarding the carcuses.

    So in short, for me, it is basicly ALL up to them and depends on the finer details. I will say though that would be more interested if they WERE armed, even if not super well, but knew enouph to keep their arms holstered/slung etc and be clear they were NOT looking for a fight. The fact they are prepaired with the food but totaly unprepaired to defend themselves or hunt would make me nervous as it wouldnt add up real well to me.
  14. toemag

    toemag Monkey++

    That is exactly why, not to mention that strange thing called fire, if they can't get you to share, they may try to torch you out of your residence. I don't even believe that they'll have a month's worth of food on hand, if you and yours are still alive and doing all right 10 days after the total melt down, you have a good chance of survival.

    I'd much rather bury the have-nots than one of my children or my wife, and just imagine your last thoughts as you are passing away because one of those have-nots that you were helping just shot/stabbed you in the back, and as luck would have it with a weapon that belonged to you.

    Yeah I have a lot of trust in mankind (not), especially under such circumstances.

    Blood (family) is thicker than water(friends, neighbour, ex-co-workers etc), the have-nots are akin to possum crap, and will be buried nearby. I'm sorry if my views are offensive to some but we are talking about after a total melt down, after all.

    Once those refugees realise that there wont be any help coming, albeit from local or fed Govt., or international aid/charity organisations they will not care for anything but themselves. I think that cannibalism will become , lets just say common place, and fresh meat is best, it will be a scary place.

    Some peoples sensibilities will be hurt now that I mentioned cannibals, do you remember the rugby team who's plane crashed in the mountain's, yeah they made a movie out of it, but it was based on a true story, BTW., I always called that movie 'Fine Young Cannibals'.

  15. ozarkgoatman

    ozarkgoatman Resident goat herder

  16. LondonCalling

    LondonCalling Monkey++

    Yeah i hope it dosent get like that either mate, it was a scenario that came to mind when replying to another question.

    " Mike Oehler" the $50 under ground house guy

    Tell me more about this fella please?
  17. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Mike' s an old counterculture hippie,written a couple of books printed in soft cover describing his minimalist approach to "home"( only in quotes because its far enough from a suburban house to shock yuppies) building
    .Dig a hole apply the correct layering of materials to waterproof and cover it back up.more like an undeground cabin really but its interesting..believe he's got a website, have to look a link for you....:)

    That, along with the "$50 & Up" price tag, is probably a psychological turn-off for those accustomed to thinking of even manufactured housing costing many thousands of dollars. Who would want to live in a $50 plastic house! Let’s set that objection to rest first, by taking a quick look at the construction method, and why it makes so much sense.

    PSP stands for post/shoring/Polyethylene. These structures are, basically, pole building, built underground. The low cost projections assume the posts and shoring will come from the building site, or nearby.

    The space is excavated, posts are sunk, boards (shoring) placed against the posts between the posts and the earthen wall, polyethylene behind that, and the space is backfilled.

    The same basic method is used for the roof. Girders are placed on the posts and secured, beams are placed over the girders, boards go over the beams, followed by roofing felt or tar paper, poly, and earth. Insulation can be added to the roof to provide the same R-value with less soil (and weight).

    Many other details are added to this basic description in "The $50 & Up Underground House Book." The basic method, however, is all you would need to construct a secure emergency shelter, quickly and cheaply. It will be far more comfortable than the sod houses or rough log cabins of the pioneers, and its durability can’t begin to compare with that of a tent or similar shelter.
  18. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Life is fat and happy right now...Perhaps my attitudes would harden up, after a taste of being mistreated...or having the garden/supplies ripped clean. "First blood" so to speak.
  19. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Actually a very good question. Makes you think, and that is really what we are all about. How hard can a heart really get? Got enough diesel on hand to dig mass graves? Something we need to know ahead of time. Not only how to do it (whatever "it" may be) but can we do it if called upon? To hold the fort, or to join the raiders or refugees? Well, "it depends" isn't necessarily the right answer, but may have to do. Plan B is always a requirement, plus the ability to change plans in midstream. Flexibility to go with ability, eh?

  20. flunky

    flunky Monkey++

    Reply to original question:
    The more likely scenarios [disaster, economic collapse, terrorism/war, epidemic] lead to different responses, but my default answer is, "of course" unless its an epidemic. Hope I don't have to explain that last bit.

    Yeah, I realise there's a lot of issues regarding that, esp. regarding 'security'. But maybe my answer to the ones who would execute that family will clear that up:
    Look, if I was that family there's no way in Hell I would've sent everybody your way. It would've been volunteers without weapons who went to your door. And you shot them. And I heard it.

    No man is an island. Get used to it. If you killed unarmed members of my family asking for mercy all Hell would rain down on you - and I'd find a buttload of 'raiders' for my screen, too.
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