Twisted History

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Oddcaliber, Jan 19, 2018.


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  1. Oddcaliber

    Oddcaliber Monkey++

    Anyone who knows anything about guns is familiar with John Moses Browning and the 1911. Now taking this and asking, what if another gun maker won the contract to build the 1911? Let's just say that the Acme gun company got the contract to build them. And for the sake of argument Acme is just as good as any gun maker in this time frame. Now comes the real question, would you still get a 1911 based on the design or who made it first? Start the flaming!
     
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  2. tacmotusn

    tacmotusn Mosquito Sailor Site Supporter+

    Quite frankly for me whose design it originally has very little to do with whether or not I buy a particular firearm.
    As to who the manufacturer is, again like motor vehicles, boots, brand of bluejeans, soup brands or whatever, we all have our favorites and our reasons vary. Companys don't always get it right no matter how long they have been in business or what they produce. Recalls happen occasionally. Tried and true at a reasonable cost is usually enough to make a purchase. Some will add American made only, others not always or at all. Some times companies produce something and then drop the product from their product line ......... honest ............. because it performs better and sells better than their premier version of a similar item, and thus they decide the premier version is losing money. Example would be the Remington model 788 rifle. It had a stronger bolt lock up and faster primer strike time than the more expensive model 700 ADL or BDL. These rifle sold for under $100 new when introduced and for many years. Target shooters would buy them as a base for building a custom target rifle as well. Then with no law suits or problems like they have had with the triggers systems on the model 700s they up and pulled them. Used model 788 rifles skyrocketed to $750 - $1000 ..... some in pretty worn condition.
    .
    Okay I have thrown enough sand into the gearbox of this thread to fend off too many arguments. IMHO, it is a question with an answer relative to a number of factors too various to get a solid consensus. You would be better off trying this thread as a poll.
     
  3. sdr

    sdr Monkey+

    I'm not sure if Browning manufactured anything. Thought he was just the designer. I know he went to Europe after issues with a company here. I couldn't tell you who or how many companies built the 1911's. My guess is alot. I'm a fan of the design more than who made it back then.
     
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  4. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grudge Monkey

    For Me, J.M. Browning designs are sort of funky, he had a small handful of design ideas that he continually relied on through out his life! Some designs were flawless, while others were extremely complex and while classics now, they were not nearly as good as folks think. The 1911 design was and still is his crowning achievement, a simple solution to what was at the time, a complex need, and this is where his true genius shines! With other designs, starting with the Remington Semi Auto Rifle ( later called the Remington mod 8 or 81) he had a working design from which he would gain much fame later on with the M1918 , M1919 and later the M-2 Heavy! Some claim he plagiarized his designs from Hiram Maxim, but a close look at the works of Maxim show only a passing similarity! Browning was quite prolific through out his career, designing and licensing designs through out the American Arms industry, and he had a long and fruitful relationship with FN in Europe!
    I would choose any of his designs not based on WHO made them, but the quality and reliability of manufacture. The fact of who built his designs only plays into a choice when more then one company produced them, ( like the M1911) with the swelling of manufacturing need beyond the capacity of COLT, some of the 1911's become extremely valuable and sought after, while others are just a 1911 made to his patent on COLT supplied tooling! Same thing with his 1895 Lever action rifle design, with Winchester, Browning and FN all producing them, but the first Winchesters are the more valuable and desirable, but the later FN and Browning products have quite a following these days! The Remington Mod 8/81 was popular for some time, but fell by the way side as newer and simpler designs became more available! Then there is the all time classic Winchester 94, probably the second highest produced Browning design patent of all time, led only by the 1911. A consummate classic in every sense!
    So yea, I would own any of Browning's designs, especially those made by Colt, Winchester, or FN!
     
  5. duane

    duane Monkey+++

    There was a world wide revolution in the manufacturing and the chemical world about the time of the American Civil War. With the ability to make metallic cartridges with self contained primers, smokeless powders, machines capable of accurately making complex parts cheaply, and high quality metals, any new designs could be both built as prototypes and manufactured in large numbers. The relative instability in the world also created a large market for new designs and the willingness to rapidly replace obsolete designs. Several individuals were attracted to this new opportunity and developed some very revolutionary concepts for firearms actions. We remember the successes, Browning, Colt, Mauser, etc and their successes, but the pin fire, the straight pull, some of the early blowback pistols, some of the early lever action rifles, toggle actions, interrupted screws, etc have faded into history other than curiosities. The 1911 would have been a classic no matter who made it, but it might of been like the Borchardt design and be named after the man who adapted the pistol to the military needs and to mass production, in his case, Mr. Luger.
     
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  6. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    I own more 1911s than anything else, they sort of spontaneously regenerate. I can leave an Auto five and a BAR in the gun safe for five or six months and when I open it back up, there will be three or four more 1911s just waiting for me to play with. I haven't been able to explain this phenomenon to my wife's satisfaction but I am convinced it is something in the unique design that John Browning kept hidden from Colt.
     
  7. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    Reliability and functionality count more for me than the brand name. The quality of the merchandise of a brand may vary considerably, over the history of the brand. Edsel anyone??

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Seawolf1090

    Seawolf1090 Retired Curmudgeonly IT Monkey Founding Member

    Well, JMB designed the M1911 for Colt. So I consider it a Colt pistol. The other manufacturers were used to boost production during wartime. Then later, the civilian production by other manufacturers started.
    Same as the AR platform, the Garands, the M1 Carbines, etc.
     
  9. Tempstar

    Tempstar Praeclarum Site Supporter+

    I have a Llama .45 ACP that is just as reliable as my SA .45 ACP, which is as reliable as my Colt .45 ACP, all of which are almost as reliable as my Glock 21SF. Great design but I have moved on and away from cocked and locked for EDC. Still great fun for target killin' though/
     
  10. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    My dad bought a brand new Edsel, picked it up in Detroit. Red and white with matching leather seats, three speed on the column, big V-8. He sold it to my Aunt Alma in 1970 and she drove it until 2000. It was the car I learned to drive in and it never had a problem. Alma's son inlay sold it after she died, for more than I believe my father paid for it new at the factory.
     
  11. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grudge Monkey

    Only two Arms designers can be counted as Prolific, Saint John Browning and Col.Samuel Colt! No others could even come close.
    . The "arms race" between Colt and the S&W concern led to some of the finest pistol designs ever. Notable also would be Webly pistols from merry Ol England. Paul Mauser was pretty close on some of his designs, but he had more failures then success, but his greatest became Legend, Copied by EVERY one else, even to this day, the Mighty Mod 98! The Mauser 98 is probably the most produced rifle of all time, and by shear numbers, likely out strips the Winchester 94 by a very large number! Same with Browning's design, the 1911 is hands down the most produced pistol of all time!
    I seem to have the same problem as Seacowboys, I open my safe and find new 1911's all over, it's bad I tell ya, even worse is when the wife discovers the new additions and lays claim to them! especially the shiny blue ones with exotic wood grips and gold cup engraved on the slide!
     
  12. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Grudge Monkey

    And other car designs were decidedly better! My Grand dad bought a brand new Black 1953 Cadillac coupe deville, a car we all learned to drive in, and has remained in the family to this day! My oldest cousin did the suspension job, and I did the engine. my other cousin did the electrics and interior, and both my brothers had the paint and body done! All told, in the last 20 years, we have put about 30k into this car, and it's better then it ever was! Its a dream to drive, looks stunning, and is the ultimate cruising machine for nice long drives! I would have zero issues driving this car across the country and all points between!

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Gray Wolf

    Gray Wolf Monkey+++

    My wife passed by the open safe one evening, looked inside, and remarked "7 45 automatics. Don't you think that is excessive? " I replied "No".
     
  14. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    The ability to spontaneously regenerate is just one of Mr. Brownings special features in the old 1911. It's been around a while and I suspect it will out last us all.
     
  15. Dont

    Dont Just another old gray Jarhead Monkey Site Supporter+++

    Ok!! When I get home again, I am puting out candles, an open bottle of booze and my 2 1911's and I will be anxiously awaiting new arrivals....
     
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  16. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Rats. I have but one, and parthenogenesis doesn't seem to be a 1911 characteristic.
     
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  17. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    I've only shot a few 1911s, Never got into them, More of a 22 rifle guy I suppose?
     
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  18. Oddcaliber

    Oddcaliber Monkey++

    I've got only 2 1911's but I have 8 22's! Soon to be 9. Same problem but different gun. LOL.
     
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  19. oldawg

    oldawg Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I've been shooting the 1911 since'63. I have also owned many brands other than Colt. My goto is still my 1943 produced Remington Rand 1911A1. It's the design more than the name in my opinion. I have a Charles Daly (Philippines) that with a bit of barrel & bushing work and the A1 spring housing( I like the feel) has been 100% reliable as well. Sorry, I don't have any glocks to compare them too and no intention of getting any.
     
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  20. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Ghrit, I think you have to have a wife for this to work, something about the chemistry of frustration and the need to hold something of near perfection that a woman had absolutely nothing to do with. There is no doubt that a 1911 is a "Man's Gun" and when a man has too much estrogen around the house, they spontaneously multiply to bolster and defend one of the last bastions of delusion.
     
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