Unintended Intended Consequences

Discussion in 'Freedom and Liberty' started by Clyde, Jan 23, 2007.


  1. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Just curious as to when unintended consequeces will consequently become intended to protect our constitution and restore liberty.

    If Thomas Jefferson saw what is happening today, would he remind us all:
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and
    tyrants
    ." Who are the tyrants this time?

    [flag]
     
  2. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Clyde will be getting a visit from the alphabet men soon ;)

    (just finished reading the post about the old guy writing letters to the editor)



    One of the problems is that the definition of patriot has changed. Now it means "blindly follow the government".
     
  3. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Well, I guess i better head to:

    http://survivalmonkey.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29506&postcount=147 [booze]

    If posting historical quotes is a crime, then we really have gone to the ****ter. TJ was just one of the most forward thinkers....ever born. He would definitely be consider a "terrorist" by the Partriot ACT and Homeland Screwing-me-and-u-ity.
     
  4. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Doing my hgomework after a discussion with a monkey who shall remain nameless; I put the name "Mark koernke" into google came up with a "watchdog" site by the obviously liberal ADL (Anti-defamation league:))

    http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/koe...t=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=2&item=koernke

    It provides a primer and updates on various"extremist" movements,personalities and groups,
    It has law enforcement education buttons":like how to handle an extremist standoff:
    http://www.adl.org/Learn/safety/Deadly_Domains.asp
    I easily get caught up in the "Alex jones fervor" this site presents a mainstream POV of what we are comfortable talking about everyday here:

    I think we could easily get ourselves worked up into crossing that rapidly moving line between what is free speech and what constitutes advocating violent overthrow. I'm sure Everybody here wishes for change within the legal bounds of the constitution. We get worked up at stuff "joe sixpack" hasn't evn heard of nor would care about unless it interrupted monday night football.
     
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    My God T!! You go from one extreme edge to the other. Alex Jones one day and the ADL the next. Going to the ADL or their partners in crime the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) to learn about the patriot movement is like going to Athiests.com to learn about Christianity!

    The ADL and SPLC are two of the biggest "terrorist" organizations in the country. The ADL in particular is famous for precipitating these "Extremist" standoffs. Read the article about the standoff in S.C. Notice how all the "concerned citizens" were there and assisting law enforcement. Typical ADL tactics. They stake out, infiltrate, and agitate patriot groups and people and try to get them to start an aggressive action. Then they coerce, goad and even threaten local law enforcement into "doing something" about these "dangerous individuals".

    It was an undercover "concerned citizen" member of the ADL who infiltrated Wayne Fitchers group in Arkansas and set them up. When local LEO had no beef with them and weren't concerned with them. They went to BATF and urged them to get involved. Mainstream POV. Hardly. Their bio of Mark Koernke is laughable and their report of the "facts" of why he is in prison is pure BS.

    They have stalked and harassed patriot movement members for years. They foster citizen-spying programs for volunteers to gather information on these ""radicals".
    And how do they define a radical? " Extremists may be especially agitated about issues relating to their home, farm, or property, because they may believe that they have an absolute right to do what they want with their own property."

    They are a direct arm of the NWO. If this were Nazi Germany they would be the Hitler Youth and the Brownshirts. Mobilizing citizens to support the state and to spy on and turn in the "radical" "anti-government" dissenters among them.


    They talk about Patriot leaders hawking their videos and books. But go to their online store! They are constantly hawking their wares and their wares sell to the liberal sheeple who they scare with their militiaman boogieman rhetoric. They are fearmongers on the highest level. And the more of these "anti-government" standoffs that they can precipitate, the more wares they can sell and the more donations they can collect, to carry on the fight.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://survivalmonkey.com/forum/ />[/FONT]
    <font face=" />
    <FONT face=Arial>I am glad to see someone who is willing to take the time to investigate the threats to liberty in this nation. But be careful T. There is propaganda, and fearmongering, on both sides of the issue. Keep doing the homework T and you will find the middle ground. The truth is out there.
    [/FONT]
     
  6. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

  7. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Guess that is alittle manic...

    *Thanks for the education... I know I don't have the "big picture" or know the truth, 'll be doing more reading..

    I caught that "they think they can do what they want with their own property statement" too. That set me off...but this is a pov out there. leftist as it is.

    the deputy here showed up on a disturbance call. The farm family believed he was literally a stormtrooper from nwo hq. Even if you argue " metahphorically" they may havebeen right; in reality he was some joe doing his job*(*like Himler?) I don't see shooting a deputy off the porch as "striking the nwo", "Don't know how yo uwould make a dent in the "system,though ? "
    kill everyone?
    county, state,federal ????Sorry, Don't buy it....
    Yeah I bounced back from alex jones's end abit,
    and I was trying to offset some of the kill kill rhetoric.

    If that makes my posts less welcome; well I don''t want any one getting so worked up over anything I write or paste to start killing county officials.Words are incredibly powerful.
    because I don't have enough of the big picture to trust my judgement . So the ADL thing is the exact opposite pole from alex jones...which view is right ? Possibly a mix of the two?
    Sorry,for all the questions on 911;
    I don't believe flight 93 was shot down,and all their phone calls were faked.
    I do believe building 7 was brought down by explosives,
    I can't square that contradiction in my mind.
    I don't know how long it would take to "wire " a building with enough explosives to demolish it...I think thats a key question in my mind.

    I believe most people in congress think the constitution is just a g-damn piece of paper( and may require education)...

    I do believe the rich wield power to stay that way.

    I believe the "system " is tilted in their favor.I believe this is a natural outcome of human greed and weakness.
    I believe i'll have another beer[booze]

    Perhaps another red pill...

    Say what you will...When I start thinking" the entire rest of the world is crazy, my logic counters: whats more likely "they" are all conspirators against one guy or I'm seeing connections and assuming motives that only exist in my constructions.[flag]Until the sand under my feet solidfies, i'm just gonna be learning. Perfectly willing to share what Ive found with the caveat, "I don't yet have proof". If you're gonna put a bucket on my head and tie me backwards to a horse outside the gate to wander helpless inthe wasteland, wait I'm gonna go make one last trip to the bathroom...
     
  8. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    [rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt]
    My original post in this thread is simply to highlight that at some point, there will no longer be the ability to stand-up to the usurpation of power by our .gov with the hope of creating discussion. What is the final straw as the makes people wake-up? I don't have the answer. But, it simply appears that as we move through time, we will look back and say, "What could we have done?"

    The overall story is a good read, but it is not a manual. Its a fictional account but not a call to arms. How many letters do we write? How many of our politicians are owned by businesses & bankers? Almost everyone of them. And they create institutions for protection and spend and spend and spend our money like we can be taxed.

    Our forefathers paid something like 3-5% total taxes, but there was not income tax, no tax on ownership of land, no death tax, no sales taxes, no extraordinary fees other than tarrifs on goods brought into our country. That is how we paid for our government. This year, betwee Federal/State/Sales/Real Estate taxes, I will be paying approximatley 46% of my total income to one goverment or another. And what is even more pathetic: our government has to run endless debts to pay for endless deficit budget expenditures. Why is it called a spending deficit? to hide the true meaning to the average Joe. State of MI teachers pension fund: 22 billion in unfunded money. State of Michigan Budget short fall: 1 billion/year. US government budget short fall that takes into account unfunded future entitlements for 2006: $4.3 Trillion. When all unfunded federal debt is taken into account, we have over$50 Trillion of debt. (a trillion dollars = 1,000 billion dollars 1,000,000,000,000 or 3.3 miles of 100 dollar bills stacked on top of each other).

    Interesting note: Our government has run a debt/deficit since the creation of the Federal Reserve & the advent of Income taxes and Death taxes (1913 - 1918). The rapid expansion of money caused the boom after WWI that led to the crash of 1929 (nutty, crazy expansion over a 10 year period..the last 10 years have been a pretty good run, huh?) Today, our spending increases are on an exponential growth rate.

    National Debt not including unfunded/unaccounted for future expenditures:

    09/29/2006 $8,506,973,899,215.23
    09/30/2005 $7,932,709,661,723.50
    09/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32
    09/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62
    09/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16
    09/28/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
    09/29/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86
    09/30/1999 $5,656,270,901,615.43
    09/30/1998 $5,526,193,008,897.62
    09/30/1997 $5,413,146,011,397.34
    09/30/1996 $5,224,810,939,135.73
    09/29/1995 $4,973,982,900,709.39
    09/30/1994 $4,692,749,910,013.32
    09/30/1993 $4,411,488,883,139.38
    09/30/1992 $4,064,620,655,521.66
    09/30/1991 $3,665,303,351,697.03
    09/28/1990 $3,233,313,451,777.25
    09/29/1989 $2,857,430,960,187.32
    09/30/1988 $2,602,337,712,041.16
    09/30/1987 $2,350,276,890,953.00

    Yes, this is a rant. I don't understand how we can piss away our country by overextending ourselves and think nothing is going to happen to us. The next depression ain't gonna be pretty. Its going to be anarchy and the push by the rest of the world to take control of the US.
    [rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt][rnt]
     
  9. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Sorry for hijacking your thread and making it about me.. Guess
    I took mm's reply personally and tried explaining my waffling faith, I agree we have problems just don't know where to stick the enema hose...
     
  10. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I enjoy your posts T3. Keep em coming. Sorry if I came on a little strong. I have a deep dislike for ADl and their tactics.

    I was trying to point out that there is a lot of rhetoric and fearmongering on both sides of the issue.

    And , no, nothing justifies killing a man just doing his duty. Provided that it is a justified and lawful duty. AND doesn't endanger me or mine.

    I'm thinking of the killing of the ATF agents at Waco. The surviving Branch Davidians that were tried in State court on murder charges were all found not guilty. Under Texas, and most all states, laws IF, even a legitimate LEO, on Legitimate business, uses undue force, lethal force in the waco incident, then you have every right to defend yourself. The court found that the ATF opened fire first, and unprovoked. The Davidians were found not guilty of the deaths of those agents because they were defending themselves.

    Most local LEO are regular guys and many, more than you might imagine, either belonged to or supported the militias in the 90's.
    But their are those on both sides, Alex Jones's and ADL'ers that make their living off of creating fear in people. There is alot of info out there and a lot of conflicting views. It is hard to wade through what is actually a threat, or could become a threat, and what is just Henny Penny , the sky is falling stuff. But, if only a fraction of these NWO reports and stories are true then that is truly frightening.

    I have seen a lot of things in my journey and found many things that I personaly know to be true. All you have to do is see the way that anyone who disagrees or publicaly denounces the abuses of .gov and how they are demonized, hounded, framed and removed.

    I spent 14 years running around third world dictatorships where you had no freedom and were subject to the whim of whatever gov thug you came in contact with. Constant surviellence and distrust, show your papers. Then I come back to the "Land of the free" and I can't tell the difference anymore. So that is my NWO, when my country is doing the same gestapo, KGB, type tactics that I took for common overseas, then I have to believe that their is a "World Order" that is trying to undermine the soveriegnty of this, and all nations.

    Keep studying and searching T. You'll learn how to sift the wheat from the chaff.


    My apologies also Clyde for the hi-jack. Good post and I know how you feel.
     
  11. Clyde

    Clyde Jet Set Tourer Administrator Founding Member

    Hijacking? My post was meant to inflame. Just think how grumpy I will be come April 15 when I take out the old checkbook, afix my check it to my 89 - 110 page tax return that took me 3 weeks to complete and send it in hoping i didn't accidentaly click some box I wasn't supposed on my intuit tax software.

    Then, to add insult to injury, because I had a good year I will be blessed with the opportunity to loan the .gov money by estimating against 2007 taxes when I won't be making the same $, but I will be able to use my savings from 2006 to pay 2007 so I can get it back in 2008![touchdown]:mad:
     
  12. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Thanks MM,
    just got a shower andsome chow" feel alot less curmudgeonly.You obviously knew "Mark", I'm sorry your friend has lies published about him by left wing idiots...I'll be digging deeper
    .However:This is the kinda stuff people (LEOs included ) are gonna read and be thinking about when they come to my or your house or stop you on the high-way... The loss of life in incidents I read about there( adl) were promulgated..er.... er based on fear, the "extremeist" is stopped , only rolls down his window1" produces a fake drivers license and a rant about the magna carta, denies the cops authority ,drives away mutteringto himself about rights . A highspeed chase ends in a shootout with a dead "patriot"??? kind of a self fulfilling prophecy? Nwo prison, local county lock up, all have the same feces smeared on thewalls..

    I'm been trying to be careful about what I say on the board. That should be proof enough for me...something's not right...I forget we shouldn't be afraid of.gov snooping and putting us outta' the way for dissenting...This is well beyond the "You can't yell "fire "in a crowded theather either" argument.
    ...
     
  13. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    What is "knowable" and quite disturbing is that one by one; the most vocal speakers on the topic of freedom always
    seem to find themselves arested and go away for awhile....
     
  14. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Yup. I could list over a dozen right off the top of my head.
    But according to the propaganda they were radical, cocked and locked, ready to kill at a whim, extremists. So nobody questions it when one of them is arrested (without violence) and charged with some vague "Weapons Violation", "Tax Violation", or charged with murder for defending themselves, or charged with assault with a deadly weapon because an LEO was driving down the same road you were on and you supposedly aimed your car at him. That deserves 7 years in prison. No matter that they were chasing you for something that you didn't do and threatening you and your son with thier firearms on a deserted country road. I would have tried to get to a more public place before I pulled over too.

    Clyde,I too am having a hard time with being penalized for being successful. The more I make the more the gov takes. And then people wonder why someone would take a stand and say no in NH.
    reminds me of the old 60's slogan "What if they had a war and no one showed up?" "What if April 15th showed up and no one gave?" I kind of like the PSA " Just say No!" But don't think that is what they had in mind. Nothing will change in this country until enough people decide that they won't take it anymore. And I don't hold much hope of that ever happening.
     
  15. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=date>January 24, 2007 </TD></TR><TR><TD class=columntexthead>The Empire Turns Its
    Guns on the Citizenry
    </TD></TR><TR><TD class=showauthor>by Paul Craig Roberts</TD></TR><TR><TD><!--startclickprintexclude--><!--endclickprintexclude-->In recent years American police forces have called out SWAT teams 40,000 or more times annually. Last year did you read in your newspaper or hear on TV news of 110 hostage or terrorist events each day? No. What then were the SWAT teams doing? They were serving routine warrants to people who posed no danger to the police or to the public.
    Occasionally Washington think tanks produce reports that are not special pleading for donors. One such report is Radley Balko's "Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America" (Cato Institute, 2006).
    This 100-page report is extremely important and should have been published as a book. SWAT teams ("special weapons and tactics") were once rare and used only for very dangerous situations, often involving hostages held by armed criminals. Today SWAT teams are deployed for routine police duties. In the U.S. today, 75-80 percent of SWAT deployments are for warrant service.
    In a high percentage of the cases, the SWAT teams forcefully enter the wrong address, resulting in death, injury, and trauma to perfectly innocent people. Occasionally, highly keyed-up police kill one another in the confusion caused by their stun grenades.
    Mr. Balko reports that the use of paramilitary police units began in Los Angeles in the 1960s. The militarization of local police forces got a big boost from Attorney General Ed Meese's "war on drugs" during the Reagan administration. A National Security Decision Directive was issued that declared drugs to be a threat to U.S. national security. In 1988 Congress ordered the National Guard into the domestic drug war. In 1994 the Department of Defense issued a memorandum authorizing the transfer of military equipment and technology to state and local police, and Congress created a program "to facilitate handing military gear over to civilian police agencies."
    Today 17,000 local police forces are equipped with such military equipment as Blackhawk helicopters, machine guns, grenade launchers, battering rams, explosives, chemical sprays, body armor, night vision, rappelling gear, and armored vehicles. Some have tanks. In 1999, the New York Times reported that a retired police chief in New Haven, Conn., told the newspaper, "I was offered tanks, bazookas, anything I wanted." Balko reports that in 1997, for example, police departments received 1.2 million pieces of military equipment.
    With local police forces now armed beyond the standard of U.S. heavy infantry, police forces have been retrained "to vaporize, not Mirandize," to use a phrase from Reagan administration Defense official Lawrence Korb. This leaves the public at the mercy of brutal actions based on bad police information from paid informers.
    SWAT team deployments received a huge boost from the Byrne Justice Assistance Grant program, which gave states federal money for drug enforcement. Balko explains that "the states then disbursed the money to local police departments on the basis of each department's number of drug arrests."
    With financial incentives to maximize drug arrests and with idle SWAT teams due to a paucity of hostage or other dangerous situations, local police chiefs threw their SWAT teams into drug enforcement. In practice, this has meant using SWAT teams to serve warrants on drug users.
    SWAT teams serve warrants by breaking into homes and apartments at night while people are sleeping, often using stun grenades and other devices to disorient the occupants. As much of the police's drug information comes from professional informers known as "snitches" who tip off police for cash rewards, dropped charges, and reduced sentences, names and addresses are often pulled out of a hat. Balko provides details for 135 tragic cases of mistaken addresses.
    SWAT teams are not held accountable for their tragic mistakes and gratuitous brutality. Police killings got so bad in Albuquerque, N.M., for example, that the city hired criminologist Sam Walker to conduct an investigation of police tactics. Killings by police were "off the charts," Walker found, because the SWAT team "had an organizational culture that led them to escalate situations upward rather then de-escalating."
    The mindset of militarized SWAT teams is geared to "taking out" or killing the suspect – thus, the many deaths from SWAT team utilization. Many innocent people are killed in nighttime SWAT team entries, because they don't realize that it is the police who have broken into their homes. They believe they are confronted by dangerous criminals, and when they try to defend themselves they are shot down by the police.
    As Lawrence Stratton and I have reported, one of many corrupting influences on the criminal justice (sic) system is the practice of paying "snitches" to generate suspects. In 1995 the Boston Globe profiled people who lived entirely off the fees that they were paid as police informants. Snitches create suspects by selling a small amount of marijuana to a person whom they then report to the police as being in possession of drugs. Balko reports that "an overwhelming number of mistaken raids take place because police relied on information from confidential informants." In Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, 87 percent of drug raids originated in tips from snitches.
    Many police informers are themselves drug dealers who avoid arrest and knock off competitors by serving as police snitches.
    Surveying the deplorable situation, the National Law Journal concluded: "Criminals have been turned into instruments of law enforcement, while law enforcement officers have become criminal co-conspirators."
    Balko believes the problem could be reduced if judges scrutinized unreliable information before issuing warrants. If judges would actually do their jobs, there would be fewer innocent victims of SWAT brutality. However, as long as the war on drugs persists and as long as it produces financial rewards to police departments, local police forces, saturated with military weapons and war imagery, will continue to terrorize American citizens.

    <!--endclickprintinclude-->
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
     
  16. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    I believe that would be the Philosophy posse comittatus is based on, policing civilians with the military forces is exceedingly dangerous to civilians and their rights.
     
  17. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Tango buddy, I put together a list of links for you to aid in your search. Check out the APFN ( American Patriot Friends Network). It is hours of good reading. Most of these sites are more of the serious reporting type than the, "Oh no they're coming for us", Alex Jones, type sites.

    http://www.apfn.org/apfn/apfncont.htm
    http://www.angelfire.com/co/americanpatriot/
    http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/
    http://www.pbn.4mg.com/
    http://educate-yourself.org/mc/mcsvaliinterviewpt7.shtml
    http://www.thomasbrewton.com/
    http://rkba.org/
    http://www.sierratimes.com/


    Also this; http://survivalmonkey.com/forum/showthread.php?t=614&highlight=your+bookmarks
     
  18. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Thankyou, I'll start at the top , figured I burned my bridges with ya there..
     
  19. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    No way man! I think you misconstrued my earlier post;

    "My God T!! You go from one extreme edge to the other. Alex Jones one day and the ADL the next. Going to the ADL or their partners in crime the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center) to learn about the patriot movement is like going to Athiests.com to learn about Christianity!"

    I was tryin to be funny there. A little tonque in cheek. Re-reading it I see how it didn't come across that way.Hard to get your intent across sometimes with the written word. My mistake, sorry.
    No bridges burned here.
     
  20. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    No You were right I felt like real idiot, my insecurity, nothing on you ...better call the "department of survival monkey insecurity"...
     
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