Vet charged with murder for killing robber

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Minuteman, May 27, 2009.

  1. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    This is disgraceful.

    A disabled Desert Storm veteran working as a pharmicist uses a gun to defend himself and two other employees from two armed punks. He wounds one in the head and the other runs off. He comes back in and claims the wounded one is moving and trying to get up, he gets another gun from under the counter and shoots the punk again.

    Today the DA in Oklahoma County filed 1st degree murder charges against the pharmacist.

    The punk is 16 and the DA uses the term "children" when making his grandstand announcement.

    The pharmacist was robbed last month and severely pistol whipped, so he decided to keep a gun in the store. The DA claims that by shooting the wounded "child" on the floor that he crossed the line and committed cold blooded murder.

    The pharmacist is white and the 16 year old "child" was black. So of course the black "community" is enraged and threatening to burn down thier neighborhoods if he isn't convicted. Ok, I added that part but I see it coming.

    Of course the accomplice who ran off hasn't been caught. The "community" isn't helping the cops to find the guy. Someone knows who he is. And if this punk had of killed the pharmacist you can bet that the "community" wouldn't be helping the cops to find him. So much for "Justice". It's only justice if it's against whites.

    There have been "community" leaders on TV bewailing the injustice and the cold blooded murder of an innocent child.

    Well I say so what if the punk was only 16. He was a 16 year old punk with a gun, committing a crime. He won't be an 18 year old punk with a gun committing a crime.

    And I don't care if the punk was on the ground, I don't care if he didn't have the gun, I don't care if he was unconscious. The victim in the crime thought that the guy was moving and was still a threat ( he had a backpack and very well could have had a weapon). Keep shooting until they quit moving.

    I give the benifit of the doubt to the victim. And the victim was the pharmacist, not this punk. He chose to commit robbery, he chose to use a gun, he died. Too bad. You want to live like a "Gangsta" you better be prepared to die like one. The pharmacist was only going about his daily business. No matter how this punk wound up dead on the floor it boils down to the fact that he chose to be there, he chose to commit an armed robbery, he chose to threaten peoples lives. And it cost him his. He is the only one to blame. Not the victim.

    This is the hottest topic on local talk radio and on local blogs and forums. People are organising to support this guy and there are calls to oust this sorry excuse for a DA. At least see to it that he isn't re-elected.

    This will be something to keep an eye on. I really can't believe that a jury would convict this guy. But if he isn't the "community" will erupt. May be a re-run of the Rodney King aftermath. Only I don't think it would be as bad in OKC as LA. Okies aren't known for putting up with a lot of that kind of crap. Ala Tulsa in the 20's.

    Here is the link for a local OKC news story with the surveilance footage.,0,1136511.story

    The second link is a poll on the story
  2. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Looks like the above poll has closed. The final result was 73.3% sided with the pharmacist.

    Here is another poll and comments from a local talk radio host.
  3. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Seems to me that if the pharmacist still thought the guy was a threat, they don't have a case at all. I don't know what Oklahoma laws are like though. This kinda stuff makes me ill.

    Sorry, if you rob a place, and your killed in the process, that's just too frickin bad.

    The pharmacist should be applauded, not indicted.
  4. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    A couple of more stories from local media. Oklahoma adopted the "Stand your ground law" in 2006. rescinding the "retreat if you can" from state law. Basically you have the right to use deadly force anywhere, anytime, if you feel like you or others are in mortal danger.
  5. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    How can the DA ascertain from that video that the crook that was shot was not a threat?
  6. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

  7. Cephus

    Cephus Monkey+++ Founding Member

    This DA is going to do everything he can
    to put this Vet away for life and ya bet on that.

    This is going to be one for the books ,
    you can protect yourself but only so far.
    What a crock of bull ,if his partner was armed
    then so was he .

    How many times have we read of the
    dieing man only got off one shot but killed
    somebody with his dieing breath .

    Nobody but those who were there know
    what that perp was doing .
  8. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    The pharmacist was given $100,000 bond today but ( and I have to comment on this, it IS a factor in all of this) the Black judge refused to allow him to keep a firearm in his place of business even tho he has recieved death threats and the DA argued for him. (maybe feeling the heat for starting all of this BS)

    Here's a portion of todays blog from a local OKC radio show host. The entire article can be read at the link.

    Justice vs. "The Law" Our hero Pharmacist, Jerome Ersland has been freed on BOND. <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /></O:p>
    D.A. David Prater argued with the judge in FAVOR of the Pharmacist being allowed to carry a gun to protect himself at work, which the judge had forbidden him from doing. The judge apparently over-ruled Prater in what was portrayed as a "heated argument." </O:p>
    Maybe we need to send some armed volunteers down to protect this guy. (Don't head down there now……let's check on this.) </O:p>
    After all he's been threatened (for defending his own life,) by members of "THE COMMUNITY." </O:p>
    A few more thoughts on this whole thing. </O:p>
    I've had discussions with people who keep trying to convince me that Prater had NO OTHER CHOICE. </O:p>
    Wrong. He always has a choice. He could have not filed charges and took the consequences for that. Now, would that have stopped some other prosecutor from going after this guy, probably not. </O:p>
    He also made a choice when he portrayed this CRIMINAL, this PUNK, this robber, as a "young child." </O:p>
    Mr. David Prater had a choice NOT TO PORTRAY the CRIMINAL in this case as a YOUNG CHILD. </O:p>
    He was no more of a young child than Sean Sellars, who was executed for killing people when he was 16. He was no more of a young child than the two kids who murdered 14 people at Columbine. </O:p>
    Mr. Prater says he supports gun owners rights, says he doesn't want to send a chill through the public about their ability to protect themselves, but he portrays a criminal as a "young child." </O:p>
    Purpose? To portray this PUNK as victim, when in fact that PUNK purposely terrorized this Pharmacist, who was doing NOTHING but trying to make a living to supplement his disability check that he earned when he was injured defending our country in IRAQ. </O:p>
    David Prater is beginning to sound like Pennsylvania Congressman Jack Murtha, who proclaimed our soldiers guilty of murder…even though all of them were found NOT GUILTY later. </O:p>
    I don't know what the consequences would have been for David Prater if he would have given the REAL VICTIM of this crime the benefit of the doubt, but I do know this. </O:p>
    They would have been a lot less than the consequences this HERO PHARMACIST is now facing in life. </O:p>
    Loss of his pharmacy license. Loss of his freedom. Loss of every dime he has for legal fees. </O:p>
    And if David Prater is truly seeking JUSTICE, how do you portray a terrorizing punk in an armed robbery as a "YOUNG CHILD", when teenagers committing the same crime in this state have been put to death for their acts of violence and terror? </O:p>
  9. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    New developements in this case. Reports are coming out of a heated argument in court between the judge and the DA over allowing the pharmacist to keep a gun at work.

    So what happened to innocent until proven guilty? What gives this judge the right to deny this man his second amendment rights and the abilty to protect himself?

    The 14 yr old accomplice was caught and a 31 yr old and another unidentified adult (he is being sheltered by the black community and hasn't been caught yet) were in the get-away car and put them up to it. The DA was only going to charge them with attempted robbery. The out cry caused him to backtrack. He is now charging them with murder also.
    The black community is decrying the media using the term "criminal" to describe these "children". They are saying that to continue to call the armed, ski masked wearing robbers "criminals" is racist.

    The sister of the punk killed called into a radio show and was saying how he was a "good kid". He never did anything wrong and had never broken the law before so he shouldn't be called a "criminal". The host pointed out that she had no idea whether he had robbed before or not, only that he hadn't been caught, or shot, before. And that anyone wearing a mask and robbing a place is a criminal period.

    Now the pharmacist and his family are recieving death threats. The owner of the pharmacy is undecided on whether he will allow him to return to work. He is worried about retaliation and the safety of his other employees. A local security service is volunteering to furnish an armed security guard.

    A fund has been set up to help this man with the mounting defense costs and with his lack of income. I'll post the address if anyone would want to help this veteran to get through this travesty of justice. I really don't think that any jury would convict him but even if he walks he may well lose his pharmacist license and face staggering legal bills.

    JEROME ERSLAND DEFENSE FUND c/o IRVEN BOX 2621 S Western Ave Oklahoma City, OK 73109 This disabled Vet needs your help........Please Give

    Here is the latest from Mark Shannon's blog on this;

    Please Support Jerome
    The "terrorist act" visited on Jerome E. last week continues with the charging of a crime against him for the actions of four worthless individuals.

    If he must go through this, we who believe he was JUSTIFIED in doing what he did should support him on any level we are able to.
    Ten or ten thousand dollars, whatever you are able to contribute, please do.

    He's been threatened, his family and in-laws are living in fear, a real fear, based on threats made against them. One of his married daughters has a seven year old and is eight months pregnant.

    His Second Amendment rights have been stripped from him, though the law says he is "innocent until proven guilty." As a result, there is no way he can return to his job without endangering himself and those he works with.

    The judge said: "He should just get another job then."

    There's COMPASSION. (And there's a judge that should be tossed off the bench the next time we have a chance to vote her out.)

    This man faces loses his license and going to prison, if we can make his legal fees go away, we will have at least done something.

    Let's try. Let's not hesitate in our support, no matter how little or how much we can do.

    We talk so much about our "heroes," and this guy is one. He carries his Gulf War wounds with him everywhere he goes, wounds he got doing something for this country, unlike the scum who caused this act of terror, who have contributed nothing but pain and heartache, crime and chaos.

    The black "community" should stand up for this man too. If you're FAIR, if you don't judge based on race, then you KNOW who is responsible for this whole event.

    The "community" bitches because no one will establish businesses in their part of town, but are they willing to stand up for those who do and suffer these injustices at the hand of the scum of the "community?"

    Sadly, I doubt it.

    Black churches and organizations should take up collections for this man's defense, rather than bail money to get ANY of these punks out of jail.

    Will they?

    We'll see.

  10. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Glad to see he has some local support.
  11. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Have you seen the surveilance videos from this shooting? The man used a revolver to shoot the kid and chase away the accomplice then he calmly walks by the shot bandit( head shot and unconscious), opens a drawer and takes out a .380, puts down the revolver and walks over to the bandit and puts five rounds into his belly. There is a clear line between defending yourself with lethal force and killing someone after the fight is over. This man went way over the line.
  12. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Dunno about the average, but the last three times I took an adrenaline hit from something exciting, it took a couple hours to come off the high. I can't blame the guy for pumping "enough" into the perp. I admit that it was overkill in hindsight, but we weren't there.
  13. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Watch the videos; not much arguement there.
  14. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    The video doesn't show the guy on the floor. The pharmacist had just been robbed and severely pistol whipped a month before. He states that he thought that he had been shot ( he felt a tug at his wrist and his watch band broke) and that the shots were coming from the guy to his left. He believed the guy was trying to get up and had a gun.
    Whether or not the guy was a threat doesn't matter. This trained military veteran thought he was a threat and he eliminated the threat.
    Anything other than what he says he believed was happening is Monday morning quarterbacking. You can't second guess someones motives or thought process in a situation like that. It is no different than second guessing our troops when they have been in a firefight. Sometimes innocent people get killed, innocently.
    The punk took his life in his hands when he chose to rob the place. You play you pay. The pharmacist is innocent.
  15. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    This is an excert from the O'rielly show on Fox. The pharmacist in his own words.

    Jerome Ersland appeared on the O'Reilly Factor on Fox News with his attorney Irven Box.
    In his TV appearance last night, Ersland said the teen was still a threat when he fired the five fatal rounds.

    "I came back in the store because I was working with two ladies and I thought the person laying on the floor had shot the younger lady Megan because the mother was yelling Megan, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry," Ersland said during the interview. "I went up to him, and he seemed to be just dazed, and he started talking to me, and he started turning to the right. I'm crippled. ... I thought I was going to get killed in the next few seconds."

    The judge is recieving death threats. After being told by the DA that by disarming Mr. Ersland that she would be placing a target on his back if he returned to work. She callously replied "Well he should just get another job then."
    Well maybe she should take her own smug advice and get another job.

    Judge's Life Threatened Over Pharmacy Case

    OKLAHOMA CITY -- The public's emotions continue to run high as Jerome Ersland, the pharmacist who shot and killed a 16-year-old robber, now faces first degree murder charges.
    Three others, including the other teen involved in the robbery, have also been charged.
    Now, the judge presiding over Ersland's case said she's receiving death threats.
    Judge Tammy Bass-LeSure received those threats via phone calls made to her chambers.
    "They were threats on my life," Bass-LeSure said. "There were a lot of racial epithets and just things of that nature."
    The phone calls came after she raised the bond on murder suspect Jerome Ersland from $50,000 to $100,000, and forced him to turn over his guns.

    Opinion polls in Oklahoma are running 75% to 80% in support of Mr. Ersland.

    But the controversy continues Around Pharmacy Robbery&vt1=v&at1=Station 2&d1=163167&LaunchPageAdTag=Station 2&activePane=info&rnd=70760795
  16. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Much as I would like to agree on this one, the video from four different angles all say the same thing. We all have a responsibility to protect ourselves and property and I totally believe in this but it looks plain as the nose on your face that he just was pissed and capped the guy well after the fight was over. We have a responsibility to our fellow citizens not to cross the line into that area to preserve the rights of us all. A jury of his peers will determine his fate but I feel like this is going to be "OJ's revenge". He stepped over the line.
  17. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    I can't get the video for some reason. I'll try to find it on youtube.
  18. Blackjack

    Blackjack Monkey+++

    Ok, I watched it on youtube, and I'll disagree with you on this one Sea.

    Maybe I wasn't seeing the video properly, but here's my take.

    We know the dead bad guy had a gun, but we couldn't see him after he was shot the first time. If he was laying there next to his gun, or still had it in his hand and was still moving, wouldn't you feel like he was still a threat and you had to finish it? I'll even go farther...... I'll say that if the bg was laying there without his gun, but was still moving and able to reach into a pocket to possibly get another gun..... shoot him again.

    I think that once a person arms himself and commits a robbery, it's understood that he'll very likely be killed, and I think the pharmacists only responsibility at that point is to make sure that he's no longer a threat. Once he's taken into custody and secured, then we can't kill him, but he wasn't in custody he was still very likely a threat to innocent citizens.

    I'm still on the side of giving the guy a medal.

    My views on what the government is allowed to do in a situation like this is very different from what a citizen is allowed to do. If officers had made it to the scene and found the bg still moving, then they would have been obliged to try and take him into custody, but as a citizen, and a man, I would see only an obligation to remove the possiblility of any further agression from this slimebag. If we, as citizens, send a message to these punks that "If you do this you will probably die", then crimes such as this will become far less common.
  19. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I have to interject here. I agree Blackjack, we cannot second guess this guys intentions and what was going through his mind. But in all fairness the reports are saying that the second robber, the one killed was unarmed, and that the gun the other had was not loaded so therefore no shots were fired at the pharmacist.

    Ok, but he has stated that he "thought" they both had fired at him. Whether the facts bear that out or not it is what he "thought" was happening. And he thought that the guy on the floor, wounded with a non fatal glancing blow to the head, was trying to get up and was reaching for a gun.

    That is all that matters in this case. What he believed. That is the criteria for the use of deadly force, if you "believe" your life or others is in danger.
    So how can we say what this man believed or didn't believe.

    There is NO case here and the DA is trying to appease strained racial relations in that city by publicly crucifying an innocent man.

    And a second point. The DA is saying that the perp was unconscious. Says who? My wife has been a nurse for 10 years. She has had as much cadaver anatomy as this ME who the DA is basing his case on. She has seen many people who had severe head wounds that by all accounts should have been unconscious or dead but were walking and talking.

    I myself in my former wild life have been in many bar fights. I have had my head busted open with a lead pipe, a pool cue and a brick and I never went down, I never lost consciousness.

    This ME cannot definitively say that the punk on the floor was unconscious and no threat.

    The people of Oklahoma will find this man not guilty and come election time this DA and this incompetant judge will be on the unemployment line.

    BTW, you make a good point about a private citizens actions versus an LEO.
  20. Seacowboys

    Seacowboys Senior Member Founding Member

    Guys, we must not be watching the same video; the ones I am watching ( on Front-Sight's website) have me screaming "Don't go there, Dude!" the whole time he calmly walks by the punk, puts away his revolver, gets a second gun and walks calmly over and caps the punk. As much as I would want to acquit him, if I were on the jury and saw these tapes, I would vote him guilty of voluntary manslaughter.
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