We need a really good honest firearms debate.

What kind of disaster would it take to leave only the .22 LR

I figured I'd post this early enough to catch you sleeping. You are allowed to take either side in a debate. Sounds like we have allot in common.

7.62 x 39, all the shortcomings of the 5.56 and it weighs even more. I didn't reference what the average Combat expenditure per EKIA on the 7.62 x 39 is, (spetsnaz numbers might be the best case) but the 5.56 is 35:1 and the 7.62 x 51 is less than 2:1.

Yes, but then we grew up and had to use the same skills + in order to duplicate those feats of accuracy much further down range with semi-automatic 7.62 NATO rifles.

 

Beware of the shootist that only has a single firearm.
He'd / She'd probably seriously wound the first one and maybe the second also.
As they lay there screaming for help, pick off subsequent members of the OPFOR attempting to recover their wounded comrades.

Sometimes killing outright isn't the best plan of action as one can recover the dead AFTER the conflict. But wounded, they tend to want to save them from further harm.

So basically anything that can cause the human body to leak red go juice CAN be effective.

I'm of the opinion that it's not the firearm, but the tactics that may have a greater sway on outcome.

 

Can I get your sources for those numbers? I think the stats are misleading due to the role typically assigned to the platform that uses those rounds. I could see the 2:1 for 7.62x51 if it were used strictly as a sniper round, but what about out of a SAW? Seriously every other round from as SAW used in combat results in a bad guy dirt nap? Really?

The role of the 5.56 is frequently cover fire AKA spray and pray. The military does use the 5.56 in a SPR configuration - I bet the EKR for that rifle is far better than your basic M4.

EKR is only useful when different cartridges are compared as used in the same role. I would expect the 7.62 GOODGUY to outshine 5.56 in the same role due to the the superior ballistics, but not everyone will be in a sniper or DMR position during defensive SHTF.

 

The 1934 GCA specifically mentioned that .22RF was excluded under the definition of "Firearm" as therefore , was not effected by the Act. At some later time the ATF edited the GCA or someone did and that exclusion disappeared from the text but I am pretty sure this was not done through legislation. You don't like .22s, ok but watch what an American Arms 180 can do to concrete cinderblock

 

I think I will play devil's advocate a bit here... I believe the 5.56 is a very good general purpose round whose advantages far exceed its disadvantages... I am just about ready to purchase a second 5.56 as I believe so strongly in its use. Will I need a heaver caliber? Most likely I will but for general purpose, the 5.56 does the job well while allowing me to purchase more ammo at a better price than the larger caliber.

First, I will point out the obvious... The 5.56 is used by some of the most modern and best equipped militaries in the world, to include our own. They have spent thousands of hours and dollars investigating what round to use taking into consideration a thousand details such as weight, recoil, accuracy, ballistics, etc. and so forth. While anyone here might disagree with that choice, I would simple say your opinion is going against the experts that did this research, hundreds of experts from numerous countries.

Using @3M-TA3 simple chart it is also obvious we get more rounds per weight and that is an extremely important point. What it leaves out is the firearm mostly likely is also lighter for the 5.56, granted not by much but lighter. Remember, not everyone is a burley, hard old Navy Seal. My wife is petite but she can carry more ammo via the 5.56, plus the weapon is lighter as is recoil so control and accuracy is increased.

@M118LR "and the 7.62 x 51 is less than 2:1."
Nahhh...no friggin way! As 3M-TA3 said, perhaps if it was only used in a sniper role but in an across the board combat role? Nah...no way.

As far as a .22, it has it's place...but personally, I think I would rather have a small caliber shotgun of some sort, but in it's defense ammo is cheap, recoil is light and it will bring down rabbits, squirrels and birds and it is pretty quiet especially when use with a suppressor. Didn't the Israelis use the .22 as an effective assassination tool on the terrorists of Munich?

 

So, I'm going to play both sides here, I think I finally get where the OP is coming from! The poodle shooter M16 is what caused so much trouble here ( especially among those of a certain age) and this was further demonstrated in later conflicts. My own experience with that rifle and round was less then good. Point is, as a civilian, I am not bound by the conventions of war, nor am I supplied with endless quanitiies of "approved" ammo, having to provide for my needs my onesome! This is where things change in favor of the 5.56 and its effectiveness! I can choose any bullet I wish, and I am in better control of how lethal that bullet becomes, imagine getting hit with a 77 gr hollow point from way out there! Point is, the Little rifle that could ( but it wasn't allowed to) is finally getting share as folks have found the correct ammo for the job! Is it the best tool? No, but it certainly has moved into a place where it is likely the tool most encounterd, and that has advantages in both sides! I like to carry a XCR with 12in barrel or a CAR 16 Comando for a light, quick and handy carbine with enough reach and stopping power to move the fight to my advantage where I have better options then my enemy!

 

Uri-Ki, have you ran the .300 AAC yet? Being a loader, it's proven very interesting and seems to fill pretty much every small-arms "need" I would require except for long-range. The 5.56 is used in a lot of rifle matches and shows itself very well indeed so proper bullet and load will make it an extremely versatile round and with the availability of so many parts, the AR platform makes a hell of a lot of sense. There are many rifles that I prefer and am fortunate enough to own most of them but there are at least several AR rifles and another favorite for small statured, the excellent M1 carbine. I don't have enough testosterone left to give a FF about what anyone else thinks about it but my reasons are because the weapons are very familiar and easy for me to instruct someone that is not very familiar with anything but hunting firearms, to an acceptable degree of competency. I can't imagine my grand daughter taking up the .460 G&A double-rifle, although I might...if the sucker will drop a charging elephant then I don't much imagine a Toyota would last long against it either.

 

I have been looking at the .300 B.O. And others, and like what I see so far. I'm sort of on the fence with that particular flavor, but admit it has me thinking. I also agree, the M-1 carbine is a real gem, about as small, light, and handy as it gets, and with better bullets, it does especially well as a PDW, especially when one needs to be discrete. I would imagine suppressed, the M-1 carbine would be steller. But then the AR also fits in nicely. I really need some run and gun range time with the new .300s to see how it fits with my needs, I am probably going to end up with another caliber, but at least I can use the same bullets as the other .30s so that helps!

 

I just sized and trimmed 5K 5,56 brass to .300 AAC, primed them, and loaded a few hundred res of 175gr FMJBT, some 220 FMJBT, and some 185, using Wolf small rifle magnum primers, Hodgon 4198, and have really been impressed with the versatility. All the powder burns in the first 8" of barrel so it is easy to suppress and runs rock and roll like a DJ even sub-sonic.
I have the dies but haven't started cooking a load of the carbine yet. I just got 750 185 gr plated SPHP that I'll bet would feed a carbine just fine. They just are too short for the Blackout and you have to put a good chamfer on the case just to stand them up in the press. Time for another call to Widener's anyway.

 

I don't expect to have to fight hordes of well trained combat veterans... so I look for a couple of things in a rifle/carbine....

1. Will ammo be available? That leaves out large the majority of calibers... most will be military or major hunting rounds 30-06, 308/762x51, 762x39, .30 carbine, 30-30, .223/556 and the .22... ( admittedly this may differ based on AO)
2. Cost of weapon/ammo ( the cheaper the more I can stock and shoot in practice the less I will bleed in a fire fight... hopefully)
3. Weight how much will the firearm and a normal load of ammo weigh? (I consider 150 round the max anyone would want to carry during an everyday work around the AO... in the truck or on the bench won't count when the SHTF).
4. Terrain you will be firing the weapon in... (open, brush, mountains, urban etc...)
5. Expected tactics/circumstances you expect... (evade and escape, stand and fight, harass, skirmish, alone, in a group, etc...)
6. Will this be a multi use weapon or only for defense...
7. Will I be physically capable of carrying the weapon after a long period with limited rations/potentially poor health due to a survival situation? Keep in mind that you will have other things you will need to carry shelter, water, food, first aid, fire, etc...)

Based on the above constraints I would probably consider the 556 and the 762x39 military arms as a primary weapon. with the .30 carbine a close second. in hunting rounds the 30-30, the 30-06 would lead the pack with the .243 a close second.

Hand guns would be a different scenario... Would it be primarily defensive? A game getter with a back up defensive need or would you rely only on the long arm for defense and hand gun for hunting...

1. Either a .45 or .357...
2. A .357/.38/9mm like the Ruger black hawk, possibly a .22 magnum
3. .22 or .22 mag
YMMMV depending on AO

 

After action reports from the "EXPERTS" 1964-2017? Y'all might find this an interesting read: Articles: The Last 'Big Lie' of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq
Why does the Army need Designated Marksman?

 

I think that the biggest issue, the divide, between us who like bigger calibers and guys who like smaller calibers, seems to come down to AMMUNITION choices, i.e., a .22 is ACTUALLY a .35 if you use hollows...am I wrong in my thinking?

 

A quote from same:
"
On 12 September 2003, in Ar Ramadi, Iraq elements of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group engaged enemy forces in a firefight. An insurgent was struck in the torso by several rounds of 5.56mm ammunition from their M—4 carbines (this is the current shortened version of the M—16 Service Rifle). He continued to fire his AK—47 and mortally wounded MSgt Kevin N. Morehead, age 33, from Little Rock, Arkansas. The engagement continued with the same insurgent surprising SFC William M. Bennett, age 35, from Seymour, Tennessee from a hiding place and killing him instantly with a three—round burst to the head and neck. SSgt Robert E Springer, threw away his M—4 carbine, drew an obsolete WWI/WWII vintage .45 caliber pistol and killed the insurgent with one shot. A close inspection of the enemy's corpse revealed that he had been hit by seven 5.56 mm rounds in his torso. Also, in this engagement, these soldiers were provided with a commercially produced 5.56mm round of 77—grain weight vice the 62—grain bullets in use by general—purpose forces. Obviously, the larger 5.56mm round was of little consequence. [14.]"

 

Excellent article! (And, @Motomom34 this is a very good example how to have a 'civil discussion' and, in truth - win it!) Oh well, so much for playing devil's advocate. Besides, I always did want a Springfield Armory M1A...

But, seriously, I am betting that we go to the 6.8 round in the near future... I think we would have already done it if we weren't constantly at war...

 

Once again, right to the heart of the matter Ax. BZ. Now about the best of the 77 Grain 5.56: The Best 5.56 Load: The Black Hills MK 262 Mod 1 - Shooting Times
Short version: "His experiences as both a Special Forces sniper team leader and assaulter offered a unique perspective on ammo performance. As a sniper, MK 262 was his preferred round (when he was not using 7.62x51mm NATO), and he said simply, “It’s the best, most accurate round the Army has ever issued.”

Read more: The Best 5.56 Load: The Black Hills MK 262 Mod 1 - Shooting Times

 

The problem with military rounds is they are FMJ. Since I'm not in the military anymore, I use whatever I feel like and right now there are some pretty fierce .22 bullets for the .223. I also have one that is lighter than my .30 carbine and that is a plus. 300BLK is a nifty round for being quiet. I load a 240 gr Sierra to 1050 fps. Going long? .338 Lapua but some of the 6.5's or even the .308 will do in a pinch. Whatever floats your boat. If I have to hump it, the .223 wins by a long shot, if I'm on overwatch, a .308 or .338. Whatever you use, go suppressed if you can.

 

I'm really happy with my newest iteration of bolt actions. I took a 1903 Springfield sporter and sort of converted it back to a battle rifle. Sort of like a scout rifle, stocking rifle, but with better features and ergos. I also 're introduced the bayonet back on to this rifle for danger close Encounters. This rifle is meant for use in situations where a more modern fighting rifles appearance would be threatening, and yet it's even more fearsome then that which people fear. It also serves as a hunting tool, and can serve as a counter sniper tool and even overwatch, or patrol! It's about the best light weight full power rifle I now own, and it is outstanding in every drill I have run with it! It's also one of the fastest loading/reloading bolt guns ever made, and with the ability to use the better Swiss stripper clips, it is unbeatable! This is the rifle to carry every day when out and about, people see it, and don't really think about it, as compared to an Ar, or Ak, or any of the other black rifles, some how, they just don't feel up set about a old wood stock and blue steel, and no scope rifle.

 

If you want to converse about going Long, long ,even longer distance, I'll take Y'all into deep water. But I'm not sporting anything less than Mac's kid's bolt action rifle. So if we are talking "LONG DISTANCE" like AT&T I'm going to give Y'all a Government Response. I'll admit that I have yet to take a shot outside of the parameters of a supersonic 50 BMG. But that doesn't mean I can't, it just means I shouldn't! But if you want to take me into deep water, hope Y'all got an eagle eyed spotter? Yup I've worked with palm pilots that calculate the chances of after supersonic flight. I've got unconfirmed kills at supersonic max distance for a 50 BMG. Do you have any concept of the distance that we are confirming kills at?

 

If we are talking Post collapse .. in my AO. I am not taking a shot beyond 200 - 300 meters because there is a pretty good chance that they'll just keep on keeping on.

Taking a shot at 1000+m is just letting them and everyone within ear shot that there is something worth defending where the noise came from. Thus drawing seriously unwanted attention.

 

It all depends on rhe point of impact....yessir, you are correct.