We will just use natural gas

Discussion in 'Back to Basics' started by oil pan 4, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

  2. Illini Warrior

    Illini Warrior Illini Warrior

    one of most probable SHTFs - with possibly the largest ultimate death toll - is a Midwest earthquake from the Madrid Fault occurring in the dead of winter - between the long term power and natural gas pipeline disruption >>> it's going to be a massive killer ....
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  3. Bandit99

    Bandit99 Monkey+++ Site Supporter+

    I have a propane Fireplace (which we don't use now we have a wood stove) and my kitchen stove (my cook stove) is propane. Since we only use propane for cooking now and don't use the Fireplace for heat anymore (and it will heat the house) I've found that our 250 gallon propane tank lasts well over a year. I don't know exactly how long but I just refilled the tank yesterday so I will be monitoring but think we'll get 18 months out of it, maybe more. I would like a larger propane tank but can't really justify the cost since there is only the two of us.

    (EDIT: I just realized that I posted the above in September 2018 and now it is September 2021 and I still have 65%. One uses very little when only using it for cooking.)

    For heat, we use wood. I got an excellent Kuma wood stove (made right here in Northern Idaho), not cheap but excellent, and 10-12 cords of split wood with another ~15-20 cords of rounds...I am so sick of cutting wood that I never want to see another chainsaw...and yet, I am still not finished and will be out there until the rain/snow shuts me down.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
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  4. DKR

    DKR Raconteur of the first stripe

    Blame Obama and the greenies. Nat Gas pump stations used to have turbine pumps that (gasp! and Horrors!) burned the gas in the pipeline to pump/pressurize the gas. No more. All the pumps are electrical.

    Gas coming back on, one house at a time

    No just gas...
    2011 Southwest blackout - Wikipedia
    this notes that in this wide-area black out, there were large sewage spills owing to pumping ststions gong on line.

    Best way to sort out your preps is to look at what has already happened, rather than worry about Supervolcanos etc....
  5. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    The power grid almost collapsed in my area in Jan 2011.
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  6. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Looks like the natural gas prices are going up.
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  7. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    Glad to be on propane ,at my discretion .
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  8. Jeratribe

    Jeratribe Monkey

    Propane is good and all, I read a lot about the benefits using it and it turns out it's a very energy efficient and decent fuel.

    Gotta say though, propane comes from the same refinement process as natural gas does and so I would have thought that at some point after SHTF, supplies of propane will run out. And that just leaves you back to burning good old wood or oil unless you get get a wood gas generator up and running.

    This is one of the articles I read: Propane Heat Pros and Cons
    It seems the pros heavily outweigh the cons as most of the cons are avoidable.
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  9. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Propane is a byproduct of natural gas production, tho' it can be taken out of the normal petroleum (oil) refinement and processing stream. To say, that as long as ng is around, so also will be propane, and as long as the refineries run, propane can be had.

    If you have a choice between ng and propane, take the ng, it's cheaper. Propane can go where ng cannot, simply because of some of the physical properties that allow for easy liquefaction compared to ng.

    And when fossil fuels become unobtainable, wood will work (as you say) as long as the forests last. (Not long, that last, with 6 or 7 billion that need hot food.)
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  10. arleigh

    arleigh Goophy monkey

    How will you store natural gas for when the power goes out ?
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  11. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Same containment system as propane same pressures, Biggest problem is propane can be liquefied easily Ng not so much
    Just need volume for Ng storage like 10 X as much.
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  12. Illini Warrior

    Illini Warrior Illini Warrior

    you need both ng & lp to cover all contingencies - when you have nuke or hydro you need to be ready to utilize electric - the trouble with the ng & lp is the transport - it's localized to the Gulf region and POOF it's either gone or unattainable
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  13. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Well, mostly as you say, but not quite. Propane is a LOT easier to compress, and taking it out of the stream does not require the same cooling as ng needs for liquefaction. Storage of either is a different animal as well, tho' the principles are the same. Liquefied ng requires some cooling to maintain it liquid (or very heavy wall tankage) propane does not once stuffed in a bottle. I'd question the 10x1 too, because each gas source will have a slightly different proportion of propane to methane to ethane and the other stuff that comes out of the ground with it.

    Nope, no problems at all with transport. I have propane here in PA ("bottled" to say on site tank and periodic truck delivery) and ng is in the area as well. Pipelines handle ng distribution when the NIMBYs allow them to install the pipes. That is a real problem for New England which is highly dependent on ng, but the NIMBYs are stalling any new additional pipes. AND production of gaseous fuels is not limited to the Gulf region.
    In fact, ng is produced and piped away from a number of areas nationally as well as the Gulf region. Wyoming, Ohio, PA are but three of the good field sources. (Ohio and PA are fairly recent sources with the advent of fracking, which is needed for tight shales like the Marcellus and Utica.)

    But you are right, when the infrastructure collapses, the couch goes in the fireplace first, beds last.
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  14. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Its been my experience that all the Ng valves leak some even the manuals valves over time,However the one by-product not mentioned is drip gas,casing head or as I prefer to call it condensate,Good stuff in older model trucks and cars.
    Pretty sure it will run a generator if needed.
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  15. Wildbilly

    Wildbilly Monkey+++

    At that rate the storage tank would be the size of my house...maybe bigger!
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  16. oldman11

    oldman11 Monkey+++

    They store extra natural gas underground salt mines do they not?
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  17. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Have a Ng well 1/2 mile from here, Complete with condensate tanks, Something that I worked with for years.
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  18. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Not necessarily salt mines, but any strata that does not provide a leakage path. As with say battery/solar/wind setups, the storage is used to level out demand over time allowing a steady production against a variable demand. (Tho' in the electric analogy, production is the variable.)

    Side note: Gas storage field operators are exposed to some legal activity in that these storage fields take some of landowner's rights to the property away. There are some stirrings of umbrage as the landowner's come to realize that they cannot put a well on their own property because of the storage already there. The case is way far too complex for me other than to note that I'd hate to have an uncompensated use of my land.

    @Gator 45/70
    There's a well pad about 600 yards from here (not visible) 7 Marcellus wells in production. And another 7 well pad at about 800 yards, too. Dry clean gas, but there are condensate tanks that get tapped periodically. Good neighbors, once the drilling was done.
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  19. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    There ya go! Your in business now!
  20. oil pan 4

    oil pan 4 Monkey+++

    Ahhh things are getting back to normal.
    A year ago natural gas was around $1.40 per million BTUs, now it's $4 and climbing.
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