What do we do with the man named Jesus??

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by Barbosa, Jul 9, 2011.

  1. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    This quote was taken from an older post here. Instead of resurrecting that, I thought to start a new one.

    Here are the teachings of Jesus:

    • · Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
    • · Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.
    • · Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.
    • · Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.
    • · Follow the Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it. ·
    • Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
    • · Abstain from covetousness
    • · Abstain from anger
    • · Abstain from lust.·
    • Abstain from adultery.
    • · Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.
    • · Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
    • · Do not resist evil. ·
    • Do not strike back.
    • · Do good to those who hate you.
    • · Practice mercy and forgiveness and peacemaking.
    • · Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.
    • · Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
    • · Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
    • · Practice forgiveness, mercy, reconciliation, and peacemaking.
    • · Kill those that do not believe.
    • · Abstain from swearing false oaths.

    I fail to see the gain of following a person who has no good evidence of existing, let alone who is portrayed as an apocalyptic preacher of an apocalypse and a superstitious belief of a kingdom of god that never came.


  2. Sapper John

    Sapper John Analog Monkey in a Digital World

    Barbosa...I am afraid that you may be missing the point of this site and forum...it is not to bash anyone's beliefs, it is not to impose beliefs on someone...this site is here so that we can share our knowledge with others and work together so that we and our families can increase our chances of survival...if you do not like or agree with Christianity or any other faith, that is fine and acceptable...if your purpose here is to stir up any discontent or to force a wedge between people, than perhaps you should find another site more inclined towards your way of thinking...I do not always agree with things posted here but I am willing to be open minded...if I were to see something that I absolutely dislike, I can always skip over it and not read it...we try to be a family here and work together to learn and grow...not to mock or tear down each other...
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  3. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    Once to say it, then I'm done. Take any of Jesus' teachings out of context, you're missing the point. Most(but not all) of the above "teachings" are countered in other passages.
    Sapper John likes this.
  4. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    And I am learning a great deal, thanks to those that responded to my posts. I haven't missed the point of this Discussion Board. I have nearly 18 posts here. I have given my two cents and asked for two cents. Not bad for 18 posts, I think. I haven't stir up any pooh.

    I'm glad that's cleared up.

    I am under no illusion that even to try to stir up discontent or place a wedge between people at this Discussion Board would be fruitful in the first place and remotely successful in the second.

    Bash is such an ugly word.

    Thank you, but I am already a member of a dozen DB's, several of which discuss religion. What you seem to be alluding to is differing opinions of religion are fine here, but don't talk about it unless you agree with the others.

    Then post your thoughts on my OP if you're so inclined.

    Same as me.

    I'm not here to mock or tear down anyone. Are not members allowed to post their opinions on, say, marriage, child rearing, politics, drug use, how weathermen always seem wrong? What you seem to be saying is that no one here has differing points of view on anything and not allowed to speak about it if they do because someone might think they are being mocked and/or torn down?

    If someone said the most recent Bush administration was a quack job and why, does that mean that he was mocking or trying to tear down all the conservatives on this board?

    This DB has a forum entitled Faith and Religion. Am I to understand that only faith based religious people can post in it? Is this a faith based survivalist only board? Are all faith based religions welcome? Or are just atheists disallowed?
    Even if something is somewhat distasteful to some, is it not better to talk about it? Debate it? Find and listen to various points of view? Discussing religion isn't mocking or tearing down the religious. Done correctly, discussing religion isn't even mocking or tearing down the religion; it is only discussion.

    I'm not here to mock or tear down anyone for any reason. No one here will ever see a post of mine belittling anyone here for any reason. Discussing a belief system is not the same as discussing someone in particular who believes in that belief system. But if I'm not allowed to disclose my opinions on any subject already in the public domain on this DB, who is the one being mocked and torn down?
  5. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    Now why couldn't you give the correct context for all of Jesus' teachings? Especially the ones where all 36,000 denominations of Christianity agree.
    Where are these "counters". Don't just jump in, say a couple lines and then run off...it's a discussion board...*chucklin*
  6. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Well, what your first post did was really similar. You alluded to 22 different "teachings" out of context and without explanation for any single one. Then, you go and ask for discussion. Its best to approach the issue one at a time and with some level of understanding first.

    For example...

    I have a good understanding of Jesus' teachings and I have no idea of where you actually found that. If you are trying to tie Civil Law of the Mosaic Covenant to Jesus, you are missing a fundamental understanding about what Jesus did. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" was Jesus' teaching. It was not kill non-believers. Without first trying to understand, you will never scratch below the surface of these incorrect atheist assertions.

    If you want correct context, the only place you have to go is the Bible and read it. I'm not sure where you get "36,000" denominations don't agree. 99.99% of denominations agree on more than they disagree on. Typically, the things they disagree on fall under Christian Liberty anyways. Does God care if you play music during worship? No. As long as you play to the Glory of God, He is pleased (1 Cor 10). If you want to raise voice only to God, He is pleased in that as well. To try to draw some non-existent divide between denominations to prove a point really demonstrates a shallow understanding of Christianity.

    Some people will dwell on denominational differences. Some people will try to misguide others into believing things that are not found in Jesus' example or teachings. "Kill those that do not believe" is a good example of that. Somewhere right now, someone is using His name to justify something evil. That is not Christianity. One has to look no further than the Bible to find all the answers to these questions and more.

    I think I will quit at that. If there is some single teaching that you would like to discuss, read it in context, post some questions, and I bet it can be answered here. Even if you do not believe, at least by discussing it, you will have a better understanding about what Christianity really is.
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  7. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    The context of Jesus' teachings, regardless of the questionable ethics, is very simple to grasp. First and foremost, his was apocalyptic in nature. Straight out of the gates in Mark 1:14 Jesus believes the world as they knew it was coming to an end. Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of an apocalyptic end time although no one knows when, but apparently soon.

    Given the he thought the end was near and the Day of Judgment was coming, it makes sense that his teachings were unworldly, for his time and for those times, extremely radical. He put no value on earthly wealth, fame, power or family. He urged his followers to forsake all that and to focus on purifying their character. You see, you're not supposed to have a pleasant or successful life on Earth.

    And that brings up the second reason for the teachings, you are applying to get into Heaven...salvation. These teachings, to avoid everlasting torture and to gain everlasting life I put in the OP.

    But not all of his teachings are about salvation.
    Although Jesus calls for the love of one's enemies, at the end of the parable ten pounds, he orders:
    Luke 19:27: But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me.
    Despite the commandment to not kill, Jesus accepts the killing of humans here.
    I beg to differ. The fundamental understand is on the Christian who believes that Jesus did away with Mosiac Law. And I am capable of proving it you.

    I've been reading the Bible for 15 years now. No, let me rephrase that. I've been researching the Bible for 15 years now. The big difference is that I do it without bias or prejudice. My type of bible study is much more critical than anyone I know that's gone to seminary.

    There are more than 1500 denominations in North America alone. There are 98 Baptists denominations known in the world today. The 36,000 denominations are how many have been recognized since it all began

    I would need a citation for that assertion.

    There is nothing typical about it at all. Why are there over 1500 denominations in N. America? Why are there 98 Baptist denominations worldwide? Because none of them can agree with each other 100%. The divisions are anything but non-existent. There is nothing shallow about my understanding of Christianity.

    This entire quote is very good evidence as to why Christianity is divided. With such an ambiguously written book compiled in the 3rd Century CE, and with Jesus often giving two conflictual answers (love your enemy compared with chasing the money lenders and destroying property and Luke 19:27) it is no wonder that so many believers come to different conclusions.

    Still, the world did not end in the mid first century, nor did the kingdom of Heaven come about. Jesus was not the Messiah and could not be the Messiah according to the Hebrew Bible, which includes the misnamed Old Testament within.

    So...back to the title of this thread.

    lookitsaustin likes this.
  8. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    So, back to the title--what do YOU do about Jesus? Do you believe one iota/verse/ chapter/ book therein? What do you believe? Please enlighten me. Is it a series of books, a philosophy, or perhaps another diety? You have taken many parts of the Bible WAY out of context but I promise not to do that to your beliefs (or lack of). Will be very busy this whole week but promise to get back as often as possible to talk.
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  9. Cephus

    Cephus Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I believe that some place in the Bible it says ,that a man will glean what he needs from it .
    In some cases that is the belief that I hold and in others just away to see for themselves that they are all they long to be and nothing more .
    So as I see it you could argue all day without a conclusion .
    chelloveck, Barbosa and Hispeedal2 like this.
  10. Witch Doctor 01

    Witch Doctor 01 Mojo Maker

    Well i think that we understand where you are coming from...

    NOt to cast dispersions as i care not one iota who, how, or what you do or do not worship...

    I make one observation

    if you read the bible to be criticise to refute, or question the bible rather than understand it then i think you are missing the point...

    many belief sets do not take the bible word for word in a purely critical means, some take the inspired word some view it as a work of fiction or a historical work.... If they are happy with this then i'm happy for them...if you are happy with the way you worship them i'm glad for you...

    As to not stirring the fecal matter up i fail to see how you think that you haven't... just look at the title of your post.... It's well know that most folks choose to take their beliefs to heart and any attack on their belief set does several things,

    first it sets them on the defensive,

    gives them a unwillingness to listen/discuss what you may post (in this post or others),

    is to them pretty much a case of mind over matter as what you say will not really matter, ( do you really think that your comments will change the minds of died in the wool Christians?)

    and finally Denegrating any religious belief makes you smaller and less significant in the eyes of many as it's much easier to try to destroy something than build it or try to understand it ....

    If you want to discuss athiesm and it's benefits please feel free to and use the faith and religion section to do so.... no need to do so as an attack on others

    This forum consists of many folk from diverse backgrounds and diverse religious beliefs co existing for a mutual purpose... yes we discuss all sorts of things, but we do try not to denegrate others belief systems...

  11. Hispeedal2

    Hispeedal2 Nay Sayer

    Indeed, the world will come to an end. The issue here is that a human looks at time a lot differently than God looks at time. No man knows when that time will be.

    This is not at all what the Bible says. You are not to dwell and worry about worldly things because God does provide. On the contrary, spiritual gifts are clearly talked about in the Bible (read 1 COR 12). In 1 COR 9, Paul identifies that his teaching of the gospel does allow him the right to accept pay from from the church, but he willingly gives up that right and will continue to work as well as teach to makes his way. Jesus' own parable in MATT 25 is directly contrary to your assertion that Jesus puts no value on the wealth. Christians understand wealth, but not in a worldly "accumulate as much as possible" way. Its what you do with what God gives you.

    You are not applying, you are accepting. Its a gift, not a job application.

    As for Luke 19:27, you are, once again, taking a single verse out of context. Jesus is talking in a Parable about building a spiritual kingdom on earth. He was not literally saying "bring me non-believers to be put to death". Do you really want me to list all the non-violence listed in the New Testament. Aside from "He without sin cast the first stone" (John 8 BTW), you can read John 18. There, Peter tried to pull his sword as they arrested Jesus. Jesus does not intend physical battle. That is not the example that Christ wanted to set. He told Peter to put his sword away.

    Good for you. I've been studying the Bible for over 20+ years. Reading for understanding and reading to refute are two different things as Witchdoctor indicates ^. You certainly read from a prejudice, that's clear in how you continue to take single verses out of context. You went to the Bible to prove that its false. Even if you don't want to open your heart to Jesus, at least open your mind to understanding. I doubt that your study is much more "critical than seminary" as seminary can be as in depth as studying the actual paper the scrolls were written on.

    I would need a citation as well. I want one that lists all the doctrine for the "1500 in N. America". After that, we can dissect all 1500 and see how different they really are. I'll be willing to bet that that assertion on the numbers of denominations are made by someone with an agenda. Having dropped in and out of literally dozens of different churches over the years, I can say that I haven't been in but a one that ever had a un-Biblical view. The rest follow the same Book and thus are more the same than they are different.

    As I listed ^, we would have to dissect all 1500 or 98 Baptist to decide. I would likely say that there isn't 98 Baptist denominations as much as there are 98 differently named churches. There could be slightly different doctrine between them. As I grew up Baptist, I attended numerous Baptist churches across the nation and I have never been in one to find that view was different or in total disagreement with any other Baptist church I have ever been to. Christianity is more "plug and play" than your narrow understanding allows.

    Christianity is not divided. On the contrary, its probably less denominational now than ever. The movement in the church is identification as Christian, not Baptist, Presbyterian, or Methodist etc. More and more new churches are going to Biblical route of being non-denominational. We have all denominations here on this forum and they are all my brothers in Christ. I used it earlier and I will use it again (not picking on CoC), if my Church of Christ brother doesn't want to play music, I will come and raise voice only with him and God is pleased with that. I know Catholics that prefer "Christian" instead of Catholic. As a Christian, I can understand the Catholic church and its place in the history of Christianity. For that reason, Catholics are my brothers in Christ as well.

    What YOU say divides us actually UNITES us. YOU are trying to exploit a perceived weakness from divide, when in fact you are making a line into a Grand Canyon. Even as we speak, that line is out being erased by CHRISTIANS that no longer care about denominational lines. Attend a Bible Church and you can see this as it happens.

    And no one said it would in the 1st Century. No one knows the day (Matt 24:36). No matter what a few quacks say, there is no specified or coded day that the kingdom will be established. You can bet its already being done. Note how many people are buying what your pedaling in this very thread. Your outnumbered. Matt 25 has a good parable regarding waiting for Christ. A Christian is always to be ready for the arrival. The reason is clear- only God knows. Not even the angels know.

    I thought we were discussing under the title of this thread.

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  12. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    If this were a Private Conversation, I would have considerable to say, but I also would get myself in trouble, with "My" God, and Forum Leaders, as well as violate my LongStanding Policy, that allows ALL Men to Believe what they will, and expect ALL Men to Allow "Me" the same RIGHT.... So I will not make further Comment... but will keep reading....
    dragonfly, Sapper John and Cephus like this.
  13. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    My wise old 8th grade teacher had a favorite saying: "an empty wagon rattles the loudest". There is a tremendous difference between wisdom and knowledge.
    Sapper John and dragonfly like this.
  14. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    The man named Jesus, for me, is put in the same realm as Zeus, Athene, Gia, Thor, etc. If you take away all the supernaturalism from Jesus, all one has left is a Jewish man that taught that the end of the world was coming soon, taught others to repent and the ways to gain salvation. But that's not Jewish thought. If such a man existed, he was a radical who established a cult. And the cult took 300 years to become a 'religion' (my view is that all religions are cults, regardless of the size of them)...a state religion mandated by Constantine. And still, before and after Constantine, proto Christianity was severely divided.

    Any book that has talkings snakes, virgin births, resurrection of the dead (zombies) and other miracles is a book that bears very fine scrutiny. Any religious book based on fear, an either or threat that one must believe or suffer torture for eternity is not a worldview that I uphold. It is by reading the Bible that eventually guided me away from it. I have read the bible twice all the way through, the NSV and KJV once each and I've read the new testament three times, although I can't remember which version. And I read verses and portions weekly in my studies.

    I don't 'believe'. I think. I think that critical thinking skills and a developed reasoning ability is something much more noble than superstition.

    As I said above, which context would you have me believe? The Catholic context? There's 40 different Catholic churches. How about the Presbyterians? Well, there's 44 versions of those. Some people are literal readers of the bible. Others are not. Some think part are allegory...metaphorical. But how does one distinguish allegory from the literal? Did Jesus walk on water or is that some sort of metaphor? Did he feed a multitude with a few fish and loaves of bread...or is this some metaphorical spiritual devise used by the writers?

    The context of various verses in the bible are what you or your religious leaders make them.

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  15. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    I'll agree with that wholeheartedly.

    I'll be back later...after work. I couldn't get to all the posts last night. But I will answer them all.
    chelloveck likes this.
  16. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    Witchdoctor brings up a good point. There is indeed a difference of examining a belief and examining the believer, although he uses the word, "attack". You won't see me attack the believer. But you will see me examine the belief. If I have dissenting opinions of a belief system, it does not mean that I have dissenting opinions on any particular believer here.

    I'll answer all later.
    chelloveck likes this.
  17. -06

    -06 Monkey+++

    An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and
    he turned to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker
    if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger."

    The little girl, who had just started to read her book,
    replied to the total stranger, "What would you want to talk about?"

    " Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is
    no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled

    "OK," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me
    ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same
    stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns
    out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that

    The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's
    intelligence, thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea."

    To which the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified
    to discuss why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after
    death, when you don't know crap?"

    And then she went back to reading her book.
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  18. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    How does one understand the Bible or the Quran, or the Vedas without reading and asking questions?

    Yes, but I don't understand why. Like I said in a post above, if you take away all the supernatural/miracles from Jesus, all you have left is a Jewish man that taught the end of the world was near. -06 asked this question in another thread:
    The questions, I think -06 must ask is,
    If Jesus was only a man, then how can he guide me and come into my life?
    If Jesus could twist the fabric of nature and physics in the first century to perform miracles, did he perform all miracles said of him or perhaps some miracles? Are some of the miracles he did allegory or metaphorical and if so, how do I know which one is literal?

    -06's quote above is what started it. He asked a question in another thread. I'm giving my answer by debating it on another thread.

    Well, it should...to a degree. For most people, their religion is a passionate affair.

    That is sad in my opinion. Sadder still that Christianity is a religion that does not want you to think about it....just believe through blind faith.

    Oh...*chucklin*....not one bit. But you never know.
    I'm not denigrating anyone's religion here,.,,,or them...although I am very aware that they may deem it so. I would only hope that the next time someone discusses Islam or Judaism or Wiccan that the same can be said.

    Once again, you and a few others proceed from a false assumption. Critically discussing someone's religion is not attacking that religion or them personally.

    And again, another false assumption. I think I'll write up a post tonight about critical thinking and reasoning.
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  19. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    An interesting comment, to be sure. But I too respect the view that allows everyone to believe in what they will. But that doesn't mean that I must respect that thing in which they believe.
    tulianr and chelloveck like this.
  20. Barbosa

    Barbosa Monkey+

    *laffin*...A cute joke. But it's full of logical fallacies...let's see, there's a strawman and an ad hominen to start with, both in the little girls last response. Hardly conducive to a good conversation on a flight. And another posited logical fallacy that poses a little girl is more intelligent than an a (assumed) atheist adult. Still, a cute joke.
    chelloveck likes this.
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