What do you think ???

Discussion in 'Blades' started by BigUglyOne, Nov 12, 2005.


  1. BigUglyOne

    BigUglyOne Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Just got done. Have to set up the bricks that Bear sent me to heat treat it (thanks again Bear). I wanted to try this one before I used the great piece of steel that he sent.

    This started its life as 2 files. A large one for the knife and a smaller one for the guard. As you might imagine it took forever to grind. I then welded the guard into place. I put some hammer forge marks into it (I regret it now) and this is how it ended up. What do you think ?
    100_0703a__medium__720.
     
  2. Bear

    Bear Monkey+++ Site Supporter+++ Founding Member Iron Monkey

    Now that's a nice looking knife!!!!!.....
    Files are great material for using knives....
    Great Job!!!!.... looks like we have another Knifemaker in the tribe!
     
  3. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    That's a good looking knife. [beer]
     
  4. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Good job! Normally the guard goes on after HTand is soldered, but what the heck. :D

    Making knives, any kind of knives, is all you want at first and that's a good one.
     
  5. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    FWIW. It's a bit late, but the filing and grinding would go a lot easier if you anneal the files first. Heat to just about cherry red, then cool VERY slowly (do NOT quench) like in a bed of sand about 3 or 4 inches thick on both sides of the file. (Even better if the sand is hot first) When you take it out of the sand the next day or later, it will be soft enough to chew. Do the filing and grinding, then temper (restores elasticity taken out in the annealing process) and harden to suit. The weld introduces a bit of complexity as well, it should be stress relieved after welding or the joint will be brittle. Here again, heat to dark cherry red and cool slowly. Bear in mind that the heat treat for file alloys will be somewhat different than for 01, so I would test it out first.

    A hint of sorts, I don't know how well it would work. To avoid the weld, file and grind the blade and handle, then fit the guard very snugly against a shoulder right behind the blade. Then before heat treating, upset the tang with a couple center punched dimples behind the guard to hold it in place. Done right, it should be tight enough that the guard will not loosen without abuse. If you want to really get fancy, make the rectangular hole in the guard just a bit too small and heat it to install. That should give you a shrink fit that will NEVER loosen.

    Typically, files are very hard (high carbon) alloy as delivered, they have to be to cut "normal" steels. Treated right, the file alloy is usually good for knife blades, but it tends to be more brittle than usual blade alloys. I have also been told that they take color case hardening very welll, but haven''t seen it done, and I'm not sure how well the edges would hold up in the case hardening heat treat. Also FWIW, file teeth are cut in before the files are hardened thru and thru by heating and quenching very quickly. (Some file alloys are water quenched, and some in light oil, so I am told.)

    Best of luck, and happy experimenting. You've a good start in the art.
     
  6. BigUglyOne

    BigUglyOne Monkey+++ Founding Member

    :D Don't worry, I softened it twice using just the method you described. Otherwise I'd be grinding for a year.

    Thanks for the kind words.

    Valkman, I know about the silver soldering (or brazing) after hardening but because the guard is made from the same material as the blade I thought I'd try welding it b::
     
  7. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    Looks like a great knife. Tell me, is it a bit heavy? It looks (as best I can tell) a bit heavy in the blade. I know you are probably not finished , but it just looks thick. Anyway, what is the weight and its dimensions?

    Thank you very much for posting this, too. I am very interested in knife making and metal work in general. :D
     
  8. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Hmm, now you have me thinking of using stainless steel for the guard and welding it. I actually don't know why it wouldn't work, because you can't mess up the heat treat since you haven't done it yet. :p
     
  9. BigUglyOne

    BigUglyOne Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Welding stainless might be a trick. Do you know what the temp is for heat treating ? Over 1800 ??? I wonder if brass would melt ?
     
  10. BigUglyOne

    BigUglyOne Monkey+++ Founding Member

    I don't know the weight but it handles fine.

    It's 11.5" inches overall
    6 3/8" long blade
    1 3/16" at its widest point
    5 7/8" long grip
    a smidge thicker tha 3/8"
     
  11. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Heat treat temp of O1 tool steel is just under 1500 degrees - at that point the steel will get non-magnetic and that's when you quench it.
     
  12. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    Welding stainless is not difficult using MIG or TIG, the difficulty is that some stainless steels shrink badly when heated, as with welding. Austenitic stainless (T3XX series) are particularly susceptible. I know of no heat treat protocols for SS, but that just means I haven't heard of them, not that they don't exist. SS does work harden rather readily, bend it front then back, and it is very probably going to break. Further deponent sayeth not, I'd venture that 300 series SS would be a truely lousy choice for a blade. I know too little about 400 series to assess their utility for knife making. but on the face of it, they could be better. If you have a stainless knife in your kitchen, check it with a magnet. If it is magnetic, it is most likely 400 (martensitic) series. 300 is non magnetic, as I'm sure you know.

    Carbon steel heat treating temps are somewhat variable, to a point depending on the alloy and also on the properites desired. None that I know of are as high as 1800 degrees. I can't off hand tell you what the "right" temps are, my reference materials were lost in a flooded basement several years back, and I've had no reason to replace them. Hope someone else can help out here.

    Brass is a liquid at 900 deg F, more or less.
     
  13. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I have 303 Stainless for bolster material, and I was thinking of making a bolster and than tack welding it on prior to heat treat. In fact I'll probably try it pre- and post heat treat, since if I don't overheat the blade with my wire welder it'd be ok.
     
  14. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    Might work, especially if you tack on the back, and only on the top and bottom (back and edge) to avoid a bend to one side or the other. Worth a try. What alloy is the blade? Am thinking bimetallic weld, which may be way off. Massive curiousity here. Can't help but think that pre heat treatment would be better to avoid spot treating post weld. I would think that heat treat after welding would help with stress relief, both tempering and hardening temps are high enough for that. Have you thought about cryo treating for stress relief? No idea here if that would work or not.
     
  15. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    The knife would be of O1 tool steel, and the guard wouldn't get heat treated although it would get some residual heat. This is fascinating - I'm going to go out and get some bolsters and guards going. :p
     
  16. BigUglyOne

    BigUglyOne Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Uh Ohhhh see what I started ?!?!! b::
     
  17. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I've had nothing but trouble with guards and bolsters, so this is neat. The one knife I sold with a guard, I put the guard on with JB Weld. Bolsters are really a pain.
     
  18. BigUglyOne

    BigUglyOne Monkey+++ Founding Member

    Did you try pinning them, peening the pin and grinding flush ? ??
     
  19. ghrit

    ghrit Old, mean, and nasty Administrator Founding Member

    That will work, especially with a bit of a countersink. Do the riveting AFTER heat treat, or there is a real good chance of loosening unless the bolsters and pins materials are nearly the same coefficient of thermal expansion. If the materials are identical, you can polish things up so the rivets will be near invisible.
     
  20. Valkman

    Valkman Knifemaker Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Yep, but I (like an idiot) tried it on a knife that I'd tapered the tang on instead of a good old straight-handled knife. The geometry problems killed me and I never could get the bolsters flat, but I'll try it again here soon.
     
survivalmonkey SSL seal        survivalmonkey.com warrant canary
1NTzCYzfQp3EJAGcxRodMHQMXm1u9pVTCT