What good can a handgun do against an Army?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stillwater, Jul 7, 2008.

  1. Stillwater

    Stillwater Monkey+++

    I found this post on another survival forum... I bring it here, because I think it is a great article which needs to spread around the Internet like WILDFIRE...!


    What good can a handgun do against an Army?
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    What good can a handgun do against an Army?
    By Mike Vanderboegh

    A friend of mine recently forwarded me a question a friend of his had posed:

    "If/when our Federal Government comes to pilfer, pillage, plunder our property and destroy our lives, what good can a handgun do against an army with advanced weaponry, tanks, missiles, planes, or whatever else they might have at their disposal to achieve their nefarious goals? (I'm not being facetious: I accept the possibility that what happened in Germany, or similar, could happen here; I'm just not sure that the potential good from an armed citizenry in such a situation outweighs the day-to-day problems caused by masses of idiots who own guns.)"

    If I may, I'd like to try to answer that question. I certainly do not think the writer facetious for asking it. The subject is a serious one that I have given much research and considerable thought to. I believe that upon the answer to this question depends the future of our Constitutional republic, our liberty and perhaps our lives. My friend Aaron Zelman, one of the founders of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership told me once:

    "If every Jewish and anti-nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle and twenty rounds of ammunition AND THE WILL TO USE IT (emphasis supplied, MV), Adolf Hitler would be a little-known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic." - Aaron Zelman, JPFO

    Note well that phrase: "and the will to use it," for the simply-stated question, "What good can a handgun do against an army?", is in fact a complex one and must be answered at length and carefully. It is a military question. It is also a political question. But above all it is a moral question which strikes to the heart of what makes men free, and what makes them slaves. First, let's answer the military question.

    Most military questions have both a strategic and a tactical component. Let's consider the tactical.

    A friend of mine owns an instructive piece of history. It is a small, crude pistol, made out of sheet-metal stampings by the U.S. during World War II. While it fits in the palm of your hand and is a slowly-operated, single-shot arm, it's powerful .45 caliber projectile will kill a man with brutal efficiency. With a short, smooth-bore barrel it can reliably kill only at point blank ranges, so its use requires the will (brave or foolhardy) to get in close before firing. It is less a soldier's weapon than an assassin's tool. The U.S. manufactured them by the million during the war, not for our own forces but rather to be air-dropped behind German lines to resistance units in occupied Europe. Crude and slow (the fired case had to be knocked out of the breech by means of a little wooden dowel, a fresh round procured from the storage area in the grip and then manually reloaded and cocked) and so wildly inaccurate it couldn't hit the broad side of a French barn at 50 meters, to the Resistance man or woman who had no firearm it still looked pretty darn good.

    The theory and practice of it was this:

    First, you approach a German sentry with your little pistol hidden in your coat pocket and, with Academy-award sincerity, ask him for a light for your cigarette (or the time the train leaves for Paris, or if he wants to buy some non-army-issue food or a half- hour with your "sister"). When he smiles and casts a nervous glance down the street to see where his Sergeant is at, you blow his brains out with your first and only shot, then take his rifle and ammunition. Your next few minutes are occupied with "getting out of Dodge," for such critters generally go around in packs. After that (assuming you evade your late benefactor's friends) you keep the rifle and hand your little pistol to a fellow Resistance fighter so they can go get their own rifle.

    Or maybe you then use your rifle to get a submachine gun from the Sergeant when he comes running. Perhaps you get very lucky and pickup a light machine gun, two boxes of ammunition and a haversack of hand grenades. With two of the grenades and the expenditure of a half-a-box of ammunition at a hasty roadblock the next night, you and your friends get a truck full of arms and ammunition. (Some of the cargo is sticky with "Boche" blood, but you don't mind terribly.)

    Pretty soon you've got the best armed little maquis unit in your part of France, all from that cheap little pistol and the guts to use it. (One wonders if the current political elite's opposition to so-called "Saturday Night Specials" doesn't come from some adopted racial memory of previous failed tyrants. Even cheap little pistols are a threat to oppressive regimes.)

    They called the pistol the "Liberator." Not a bad name, all in all.

    Now let's consider the strategic aspect of the question, "What good can a handgun do against an army....?" We have seen that even a poor pistol can make a great deal of difference to the military career and postwar plans of one enemy soldier. That's tactical. But consider what a million pistols, or a hundred million pistols (which may approach the actual number of handguns in the U.S. today), can mean to the military planner who seeks to carry out operations against a populace so armed. Mention "Afghanistan" or "Chechnya" to a member of the current Russian military hierarchy and watch them shudder at the bloody memories. Then you begin to get the idea that modern munitions, air superiority and overwhelming, precision-guided violence still are not enough to make victory certain when the targets are not sitting Christmas- present fashion out in the middle of the desert.

    "A billion here, a billion there, sooner or later it adds up to real money." --Everett Dirksen

    Consider that there are at least as many firearms-- handguns, rifles and shotguns-- as there are citizens of the United States. Consider that last year there were more than 14 million Americans who bought licenses to hunt deer in the country. 14 million-- that's a number greater than the largest five professional armies in the world combined. Consider also that those deer hunters are not only armed, but they own items of military utility-- everything from camouflage clothing to infrared "game finders", Global Positioning System devices and night vision scopes.

    Consider also that quite a few of these hunters are military veterans. Just as moving around in the woods and stalking game are second nature, military operations are no mystery to them, especially those who were on the receiving end of guerrilla war in Southeast Asia. Indeed, such men, aging though they may be, may be more psychologically prepared for the exigencies of civil war (for this is what we are talking about) than their younger active-duty brother-soldiers whose only military experience involved neatly defined enemies and fronts in the Grand Campaign against Saddam. Not since 1861-1865 has the American military attempted to wage a war athwart its own logistical tail (nor indeed has it ever had to use modern conventional munitions on the Main Streets of its own hometowns and through its relatives' backyards, nor has it tested the obedience of soldiers who took a very different oath with orders to kill their "rebellious" neighbors, but that touches on the political aspect of the question).

    But forget the psychological and political for a moment, and consider just the numbers. To paraphrase the Senator, "A million pistols here, a million rifles there, pretty soon you're talking serious firepower." No one, repeat, no one, will conquer America, from within or without, until its citizenry are disarmed. We remain, as a British officer had reason to complain at the start of our Revolution, "a people numerous and armed."

    The Second Amendment is a political issue today only because of the military reality that underlies it. Politicians who fear the people seek to disarm them. People who fear their government's intentions refuse to be disarmed. The Founders understood this. So, too, does every tyrant who ever lived. Liberty-loving Americans forget it at their peril. Until they do, American gunowners in the aggregate represent a strategic military fact and an impediment to foreign tyranny. They also represent the greatest political challenge to home-grown would-be tyrants. If the people cannot be forcibly disarmed against their will, then they must be persuaded to give up their arms voluntarily. This is the siren song of "gun control," which is to say "government control of all guns," although few self-respecting gun-grabbers would be quite so bold as to phrase it so honestly.

    Joseph Stalin, when informed after World War II that the Pope disapproved of Russian troops occupying Trieste, turned to his advisors and asked, "The Pope? The Pope? How many divisions does he have?" Dictators are unmoved by moral suasion. Fortunately, our Founders saw the wisdom of backing the First Amendment up with the Second. The "divisions" of the army of American constitutional liberty get into their cars and drive to work in this country every day to jobs that are hardly military in nature. Most of them are unmindful of the service they provide. Their arms depots may be found in innumerable closets, gunracks and gunsafes. They have no appointed officers, nor will they need any until they are mobilized by events. Such guardians of our liberty perform this service merely by existing. And although they may be an ever-diminishing minority within their own country, as gun ownership is demonized and discouraged by the ruling elites, still they are as yet more than enough to perform their vital task. And if they are unaware of the impediment they present to their would-be rulers, their would-be rulers are painfully aware of these "divisions of liberty", as evidenced by their incessant calls for individual disarmament. They understand moral versus military force just as clearly as Stalin, but they would not be so indelicate as to quote him.

    The Roman Republic failed because they could not successfully answer the question, "Who Shall Guard the Guards?" The Founders of this Republic answered that question with both the First and Second Amendments. Like Stalin, the Clintonistas could care less what common folk say about them, but the concept of the armed citizenry as guarantors of their own liberties sets their teeth on edge and disturbs their statist sleep.

    Governments, some great men once avowed, derive their legitimacy from "the consent of the governed." In the country that these men founded, it should not be required to remind anyone that the people do not obtain their natural, God-given liberties by "the consent of the Government." Yet in this century, our once great constitutional republic has been so profaned in the pursuit of power and social engineering by corrupt leaders as to be unrecognizable to the Founders. And in large measure we have ourselves to blame because at each crucial step along the way the usurpers of our liberties have obtained the consent of a majority of the governed to do what they have done, often in the name of "democracy"-- a political system rejected by the Founders. Another good friend of mine gave the best description of pure democracy I have ever heard. "Democracy," he concluded, "is three wolves and a sheep sitting down to vote on what to have for dinner." The rights of the sheep in this system are by no means guaranteed.

    Now it is true that our present wolf-like, would-be rulers do not as yet seek to eat that sheep and its peaceable wooly cousins (We, the people). They are, however, most desirous that the sheep be shorn of taxes, and if possible and when necessary, be reminded of their rightful place in society as "good citizen sheep" whose safety from the big bad wolves outside their barn doors is only guaranteed by the omni-presence in the barn of the "good wolves" of the government. Indeed, they do not present themselves as wolves at all, but rather these lupines parade around in sheep's clothing, bleating insistently in falsetto about the welfare of the flock and the necessity to surrender liberty and property "for the children", er, ah, I mean "the lambs." In order to ensure future generations of compliant sheep, they are careful to educate the lambs in the way of "political correctness," tutoring them in the totalitarian faiths that "it takes a barnyard to raise a lamb" and "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

    Every now and then, some tough old independent-minded ram refuses to be shorn and tries to remind the flock that they once decided affairs themselves according to the rule of law of their ancestors, and without the help of their "betters." When that happens, the fangs become apparent and the conspicuously unwilling are shunned, cowed, driven off or (occasionally) killed. But flashing teeth or not, the majority of the flock has learned over time not to resist the Lupine-Mandarin class which herds it. Their Founders, who were fiercely independent rams, would have long ago chased off such usurpers. Any present members of the flock who think like that are denounced as antediluvian or mentally deranged.

    There are some of these dissidents the lupines would like to punish, but they dare not-- for their teeth are every bit as long as their "betters." Indeed, this is the reason the wolves haven't eaten any sheep in generations. To the wolves chagrin, this portion of the flock is armed and they outnumber the wolves by a considerable margin. For now the wolves are content to watch the numbers of these "armed sheep" diminish, as long teeth are no longer fashionable in polite society. (Indeed, they are considered by the literati to be an anachronism best forgotten and such sheep are dismissed by the Mandarins as "Tooth Nuts" or "Right Leg Fanatics".) When the numbers of armed sheep fall below a level that wolves can feel safe to do so, the eating will begin. The wolves are patient, and proceed by infinitesimal degrees like the slowly-boiling frog. It took them generations to lull the sheep into accepting them as rulers instead of elected representatives. If it takes another generation or two of sheep to complete the process, the wolves can wait. This is our "Animal Farm," without apology to George Orwell.

    Even so, the truth is that one man with a pistol CAN defeat an army, given a righteous cause to fight for, enough determination to risk death for that cause, and enough brains, luck and friends to win the struggle. This is true in war but also in politics, and it is not necessary to be a Prussian militarist to see it. The dirty little secret of today's ruling elite as represented by the Clintonistas is that they want people of conscience and principle to be divided in as many ways as possible ("wedge issues" the consultants call them) so that they may be more easily manipulated. No issue of race, religion, class or economics is left unexploited. Lost in the din of jostling special interests are the few voices who point out that if we refuse to be divided from what truly unites us as a people, we cannot be defeated on the large issues of principle, faith, the constitutional republic and the rule of law. More importantly, woe and ridicule will be heaped upon anyone who points out that like the blustering Wizard of Oz, the federal tax and regulation machine is not as omniscient, omnipotent or fearsome as they would have us believe. Like the Wizard, they fan the scary flames higher and shout, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

    For the truth is, they are frightened that we will find out how pitifully few they are compared to the mass of the citizenry they seek to frighten into compliance with their tax collections, property seizures and bureaucratic, unconstitutional power-shifting. I strongly recommend everyone see the new animated movie "A Bug's Life". Simple truths may often be found sheltering beneath unlikely overhangs, there protected from the pelting storm of lies that soak us everyday.

    "A Bug's Life", a childrens' movie of all things, is just such a place.

    The plot revolves around an ant hill on an unnamed island, where the ants placate predatory grasshoppers by offering them each year one-half of the food they gather (sounds a lot like the IRS, right?). Driven to desperation by the insatiable tax demands of the large, fearsome grasshoppers, one enterprising ant goes abroad seeking bug mercenaries who will return with him and defend the anthill when the grasshoppers return. (If this sounds a lot like an animated "Magnificent Seven", you're right.)

    The grasshoppers (who roar about like some biker gang or perhaps the ATF in black helicopters, take your pick) are, at one point in the movie, lounging around in a bug cantina down in Mexico, living off the bounty of the land. The harvest seeds they eat are dispensed one at a time from an upturned bar bottle. Two grasshoppers suggest to their leader, a menacing fellow named "Hopper" (whose voice characterization by Kevin Spacey is suitably evil personified), that they should forget about the poor ants on the island. Here, they say, we can live off the fat of the land, why worry about some upstart ants? Hopper turns on them instantly. "Would you like a seed?" he quietly asks one. "Sure," answers the skeptical grasshopper thug. "Would you like one?" Hopper asks the other. "Yeah," says he. Hopper manipulates the spigot on the bar bottle twice, and distributes the seeds to them.

    "So, you want to know why we have to go back to the island, do you?" Hopper asks menacingly as the thugs munch on their seeds. "I'll show you why!" he shouts, removing the cap from the bottle entirely with one quick blow. The seeds, no longer restrained by the cap, respond to gravity and rush out all at once, inundating the two grasshoppers and crushing them. Hopper turns to his remaining fellow grasshoppers and shrieks, "That's why!"

    I'm paraphrasing from memory here, for I've only seen the movie once. But Hopper then explains, "Don't you remember the upstart ant on that island? They outnumber us a hundred to one. How long do you think we'll last if they ever figure that out?"

    "If the ants are not frightened of us," Hopper tells them, "our game is finished. We're finished."

    Of course it comes as no surprise that in the end the ants figure that out. Would that liberty-loving Americans were as smart as animated ants.

    Courage to stand against tyranny, fortunately, is not only found on videotape. Courage flowers from the heart, from the twin roots of deeply-held principle and faith in God. There are American heroes living today who have not yet performed the deeds of principled courage that future history books will record. They have not yet had to stand in the gap, to plug it with their own fragile bodies and lives against the evil that portends. Not yet have they been required to pledge "their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor." Yet they will have to. I believe with all my heart the lesson that history teaches: That each and every generation of Americans is given, along with the liberty and opportunity that is their heritage, the duty to defend America against the tyrannies of their day. Our father's father's fathers fought this same fight. Our mother's mother's mothers fought it as well. From the Revolution through the world wars, from the Cold War through to the Gulf, they fought to secure their liberty in conflicts great and small, within and without.

    They stood faithful to the oath that our Founders gave us: To bear true faith and allegiance-- not to a man; not to the land; not to a political party, but to an idea. The idea is liberty, as codified in the Constitution of the United States. We swear, as did they, an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And throughout the years they paid in blood and treasure the terrible price of that oath. That was their day. This is ours. The clouds we can see on the horizon may be a simple rain or a vast hurricane, but there is a storm coming. Make no mistake.

    Lincoln said that this nation cannot long exist half slave and half free. I say, if I may humbly paraphrase, that this nation cannot long exist one-third slave, one-third uncommitted, and one-third free. The slavery today is of the mind and soul not the body, but is slavery without a doubt that the Clintons and their toadies are pushing.

    It is slavery to worship our nominally-elected representatives as our rulers instead of requiring their trustworthiness as our servants. It is slavery of the mind and soul that demands that God-given rights that our Forefathers secured with their blood and sacrifice be traded for false security of a nanny-state which will tend to our "legitimate needs" as they are perceived by that government.

    It is slavery to worship humanism as religion and slavery to deny life and liberty to unborn Americans. As people of faith in God, whatever our denomination, we are in bondage to a plantation system that steals our money; seizes our property; denies our ancient liberties; denies even our very history, supplanting it with sanitized and politicized "correctness"; denies our children a real public education; denies them even the mention of God in school; denies, in fact, the very existence of God.

    So finally we are faced with, we must return to, the moral component of the question: "What good can a handgun do against an army?" The answer is "Nothing," or "Everything." The outcome depends upon the mind and heart and soul of the man or woman who holds it. One may also ask, "What good can a sling in the hands of a boy do against a marauding giant?" If your cause is just and righteous much can be done, but only if you are willing to risk the consequences of failure and to bear the burdens of eternal vigilance.

    A new friend of mine gave me a plaque the other day. Upon it is written these words by Winston Churchill, a man who knew much about fighting tyranny:

    "Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Winston Churchill

    The Spartans at Thermopolae knew this. The fighting Jews of Masada knew this, when every man, woman and child died rather than submit to Roman tyranny. The Texans who died at the Alamo knew this. The frozen patriots of Valley Forge knew this. The "expendable men" of Bataan and Corregidor knew this. If there is one lesson of Hitlerism and the Holocaust, it is that free men, if they wish to remain free, must resist would-be tyrants at the first opportunity and at every opportunity. Remember that whether they the come as conquerors or elected officials, the men who secretly wish to be your murderers must first convince you that you must accept them as your masters. Free men and women must not wait until they are "selected", divided and herded into Warsaw Ghettos, there to finally fight desperately, almost without weapons, and die outnumbered.

    The tyrant must be met at the door when he appears. At your door, or mine, wherever he shows his bloody appetite. He must be met by the pistol which can defeat an army. He must be met at every door, for in truth we outnumber him and his henchmen. It matters not whether they call themselves Communists or Nazis or something else. It matters not what flag they fly, nor what uniform they wear. It matters not what excuses they give for stealing your liberty, your property or your life. "By their works ye shall know them."

    The time is late. Those who once has trouble reading the hour on their watches have no trouble seeing by the glare of the fire at Waco. Few of us realized at the time that the Constitution was burning right along with the Davidians. Now we know better.

    We have had the advantage of that horrible illumination for more than five years now-- five years in which the rule of law and the battered old parchment of our beloved Constitution have been smashed, shredded and besmirched by the Clintonistas. In this process they have been aided and abetted by the cowardly incompetence of the "opposition" Republican leadership, a fact made crystal clear by the Waco hearings. They have forgotten Daniel Webster's warning: "Miracles do not cluster. Hold on to the Constitution of the United States of America and the Republic for which it stands-- what has happened once in six thousand years may never happen again. Hold on to your Constitution, for if the American Constitution shall fail there will be anarchy throughout the world."

    Yet being able to see what has happened has not helped us reverse, or even slow, the process. The sad fact is that we may have to resign ourselves to the prospect of having to maintain our principles and our liberty in the face of becoming a disenfranchised minority within our own country.

    The middle third of the populace, it seems, will continue to waffle in favor of the enemies of the Constitution until their comfort level with the economy is endangered. They've got theirs, Jack. The Republicans, who we thought could represent our interests and protect the Constitution and the rule of law, have been demonstrated to be political eunuchs. Alan Keyes was dead right when he characterized the last election as one between "the lawless Democrats and the gutless Republicans." The spectacular political failures of our current leaders are unrivaled in our history unless you recall the unprincipled jockeying for position and tragi-comedy of misunderstanding and miscommunication which lead to our first Civil War.

    And make no mistake, it is civil war which may be the most horrible corollary of the Law of Unintended Consequences as it applies to the Clintonistas and their destruction of the rule of law. Because such people have no cause for which they are willing to die (all morality being relativistic to them, and all principles compromisable), they cannot fathom the motives or behavior of people who believe that there are some principles worth fighting and dying for. Out of such failures of understanding come wars. Particularly because although such elitists would not risk their own necks in a fight, they have no compunction about ordering others in their pay to fight for them. It is not the deaths of others, but their own deaths, that they fear. As a Christian, I cannot fear my own death, but rather I am commanded by my God to live in such a way as to make my death a homecoming. That this makes me incomprehensible and threatening to those who wish to be my masters is something I can do little about. I would suggest to them that they not poke their godless, tyrannical noses down my alley. As the coiled rattlesnake flag of the Revolution bluntly stated: "Don't Tread on Me!" Or, as our state motto here in Alabama says: "We Dare Defend Our Rights."

    But can a handgun defeat an army? Yes. It remains to be seen whether the struggle of our generation against the tyrants of our day in the first decade of the 21st Century will bring a restoration of liberty and the rule of law or a dark and bloody descent into chaos and slavery.

    If it is to be the former, I will meet you at the new Yorktown. If it is to be the latter, I will meet you at Masada. But I will not be a slave. And I know that whether we succeed or fail, if we should fall along the way our graves will one day be visited by other free Americans, thanking us that we did not forget that, with the help of Almighty God, in the hands of a free man a handgun CAN defeat a tyrant's army.
    Aeason, Elessar, smithcp2002 and 2 others like this.
  2. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Awesome read. I actually cut and pasted it into e-mails.
  3. Stillwater

    Stillwater Monkey+++

    I'm very happy that you liked the post... And, I am even happier that you emailed out to others... That, communication of facts, is what it is all about, thank you!

  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    I point out that there are no records of the Liberator's use in that manner. None. That said, the concept is good, no matter how unlikely. We hope there are will be enough arms remaining "off the books" that there is a chance of that scenario succeeding.

    There WILL be many casualties, the knowledge and memory of which is more likely to raise consciousness among the sleeping sheep than any other trigger. The 1stA is the means by which the 2ndA will be brought into focus. We can hope (and work to assure) that the 1stA does not get corrupted, that the word of the casualties and the reasons for their passing is spread far enough and to the right sheepdogs.

    Make No Mistake, there will be blood enough to water the Tree before a general awakening and active resistance will happen.
  5. Stillwater

    Stillwater Monkey+++

    I remember reading about the Liberator pistol in the American Rifleman, or another magazine, somewhere in the early sixties. The article was about how the pistol was actually air dropped, into enemy occupied countries, and used against the Nazi's, and the Japanese occupying forces.

    The various media will portray any real patriot, as a gun crazy kook, regardless of what the true facts are...!

    As an example a man, here in southern California, had a small fire at his house. The fireman found many thousands of rounds of ammunition and about sixty guns. Everything found was legal to own. It didn't stop the police from confiscating everything.

    The owner was jailed. The police and the media all portrayed this man as a dangerous right wing kook.

    However, everything had to be returned to the owner, because everything was legally owned. The media did not report on the arms and ammunition being returned because of it's legality. Their one sided reporting only portrayed the man as a right wing, survivalist kook.

    The police did not issue any retractions. And the media didn't print any retractions. Which is why everybody in his neighborhood, probably still thinks the man is a dangerous, right wing survivalist, kook.

  6. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    hehehe. Yep, have googled myself, both ways. I'm there --

    Your remarks about the press are understood, clearly. That is the reasoning behind what I said. "We can hope (and work to assure) that the 1stA does not get corrupted, that the word of the casualties and the reasons for their passing is spread far enough and to the right sheepdogs."

    I should mention that the Liberator may well have been used, but documentation is lacking according to American Rifleman last month.
  7. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    Now, jump forward to another war......and as your confidence increases, your attacks increase and become more bold, more enemy attention is placed in your area of operation. When your neighbors get tired of the roadblocks, increased searches, just increased nuisance, someone will send an anonymous note to your enemy, it's stillwater causing all the problems. The enemy then approaches your house one night and you hear them coming and you stick your hunting rifle out the door and shoot one of the enemy, wounding him. His buddies come forward with massed fires and drag their buddy out. Then you go into a defensive posture watching for them to return, it's quiet, nothing but crickets chirping, thats when you hear it, zzzzzssssccccchhhhhhuuuuuuuusssssshhhhh......... right before the 2000 pound bomb, or javelin missile takes your house, family, belongings, everything that has Stillwater marked on it and incinerates it into oblivion. The next morning, your enemy is out on another patrol and your neighbors realize that the roadblocks are less, the searches have decreased and life is returning to a close normal. The local citizenry notice that without Stillwater and his ideas, life returns to a sense of normality relatively quickly.

    I actually have video to prove this scenario. The human condition is to survive and when the time comes, either a life of servitude or a patriotic death of yourself AND your family, most will capitulate. If it was not for the true liberators, the U.S. the French Resistance would have eventually been snuffed out. Not what we all want to hear, but that is the facts as history has provided time and time again. Maybe not your nextdoor neighbor, but the guy five miles down who gives a rat's ass about you or your beliefs, will turn you over in a heartbeat if it means taking heat off his life. Very rarely does revolutions or insurgencies truely work..... of course this is all just IMHO
  8. Stillwater

    Stillwater Monkey+++

    Your scenario could very well be the way things will go... At my age, it wouldn't make much difference, one way or the other, except to my politically incorrect dog. My best friend is a protective, 80 pound Pit Bull.

    However, I have seen combat in two wars, The Korean Conflict and in Viet Nam.

    Even at my age, if push comes to shove, I might be a tough nut to crack...!

  9. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    Yup, thinking professional soldiers who will do everything in their power to make sure you die for your cause.( however noble) Artillery, air, portable missiles and rockets, armor.bio and chemicals?
    I'm not saying there's nothing worth dieing for; And it would not be difficult to become a real pain the opressors arse...but have no video game illusions or fantasies.IMHO a real civil war would quickly become a war of attrition( like the first)......
  10. Tango3

    Tango3 Aimless wanderer

    4 members and 4"guests" watching this thread??? hmmmm....I need to get back to(and stay in) the "jamie lee curtis "archives...
    Hi y'all...register and introduce yourselves...eavesdropping is rude and used to be illlegal...
  11. godisreal

    godisreal Monkey++

    This is a subject that I pray never come's to pass as I hope that god given inteligence will prevail.But in today's world of expanding corparation's and multi billion dollar deal's between countries for oil , mineral right's and let's not forget wepon's(as america is one of the world's largest supplier of wepon's that end up being used in other countries against our own soldier's)we have to consider the possibilities.Sniper66 is right when he say's that they would rather use a 1 million dollar peice of gear(bomb) to kill 1 person but is IMHO incorrect in saying that since the rabble rouser is dead that all the people are now more passive.I know you are in irac or are going so you know that with all of our great war implament's we cannot stop the will of some to keep fighting.Even now recruiter's for the jihad are in pakistan in public calling for men to join the fight against the american occupation.Violence only beget's violence.It take's a rare and very special person to bring peace.Blessed are the peace makers for they will be called the sons of god matthew5/9.In the book of revelation it say's that a great battle will come to be and after the beast is cast out the earth will be inhabited by the godly and the 144,000 will go with god.So the survivalist will be in the grace of god.And this country is less than 300 years old and has already spread more destruction than any empire in the past that lasted for thousands of years.My father and all my uncles were in vietnam and my grandfather died during ww2 so my family has had a belly full of death letters as my granma called them.But we all still believe in the people of america and we rely on our neighbors as they rely on us.So not all community's will stand by and be happy with anyone of us getting blown up by a coward's bomb.I use the word coward as most time's both side's of the story are not known.It's either the medical corparations interest in the afgan opium or the oil corporations interest in the oil of irac.The saudis already had us come and defend there oil fields in the first gulf war and what are they doing now.They are selling to the chinese and not helping us to have more gas to help the average american some of which are now spending half of there paycheck just to drive back and forth to work.I have to admit that even if this gets me kicked off I think that the act of dropping a bomb on one man and his family is wrong.Now we here that some times they hit the wrong house and dont help at all.Ok Im just gonna shut up as I do believe that 1 pistol can change many things as john wilkes booth only had one pistole and look at the hell that made.
  12. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    But, there are plenty of us who are not married, no kids, own very little, and can be very mobile. Will we win? Probably not, but from what I wittnessed first hand from the insurgents in Iraq, the "Wolf" we face will pay a high price for its dinner.
  13. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    If I had to make a prediction, I would say that this will not happen in our lifetime, oh there will be times where people are killed and their rights are trampled on such as Ruby Ridge, but in a grandscale I do not think it will happen in my lifetime, maybe not even in my children's lifetime. Now my grandchildren may very well see this come to pass. That is why it is so important for us to teach what we know, to pass the thoughts, ideas, skills, and even arms down to our children so that they can do the same. One day, one generation will need them more than the previous. My daughter used to think I was "wayyy out there" but slowly I can see the light turning on. Teaching her not only to shoot, to hunt, but to vote, and to be aware. Aware of not only her surroundings, but of the political landscape both locally and nationally that will be affecting her life, and her rights. Teaching her to know the difference between right and wrong, and sometimes it is okay to question authority. As long as it is not mine.
  14. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I bring my point up simply as a fun talking point because it will never happen where the military will come in to take the guns away. If it ever happens, it will be by the legalized banning. Then the law enforcement will pick the "illegal" hold outs off one by one based on inteligence gathered by neighbors and by the braggart actions of most. Much like the counter drug program takes out pot growers one at a time, that way, they can mass their powers at their choosing. Plan, prepare, rehearse, execute, AAR and then move to the next. If you are foolish enough to make yourself known, then they will surround you, bring in the press to show off how out of touch the kook is, then burn our house down. Lather, rinse, repeat.
    kellory likes this.
  15. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    And as you should have learned in Iraq, the wolf quickly becomes learned to they ways of the rabbit and isn't long before tactics are shifted to use the whiles of the rabbit against itself. The smartest insurgents in Iraq are the quiet ones that keep their mouth shut, don't get greedy on success and take their time. Case in point, Taji.
  16. RouteClearance

    RouteClearance Monkey+++

    I know all about Taji. That is where our Route Clearence missions would turn around and head back home.
  17. E.L.

    E.L. Moderator of Lead Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    With the exception of the smaller in scale Katrina, I agree, it do not think it will be many more generations away that total banning could take place. Laws will be passed restricting us further and further, taking us apart piece by piece, the old death by a 1,000 cuts. Who knows, maybe America will be different that Germany, Japan, England, Australia, etc. Even "Slick Willie" admitted that the AWB is what lost congress for the democrats in 94'.

    The one model where this has not come to pass is Canada. The Canadian Gov. passed all kinds of registrations and bans, but the western provinces en masse refused to enforce it. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians stood up and shouted "NO", we will not give up our arms, and we will not register them. What did Canada do about it? Nothing. Last I heard the Gov. had even backed off a lot of their laws/requirements because they were unenforceable. Our culture would have to change a whole lot for this to be enforced, especially in the south. Americans feel very strongly about their 2nd Amendment rights. While the numbers of hunters fall every year, it appears the numbers of gun owners and concealed carry permit holders is rising. I think it would take a huge shift in the cultural climate for D.C./Chicago like bans to be passed nationally.
  18. BAT1

    BAT1 Cowboys know no fear

    I'd rather die fighting, than drug a way a slave. Very good read. Rather interesting parallel to what's going on today.
    Good people unite.
  19. sniper-66

    sniper-66 Monkey+++ Moderator Emeritus Founding Member

    I really don't even believe they will try taking the guns, I think they will go after ammunition. Look at it already, our range attendance has nearly dropped off %75 because people can't afford to shoot ammunition, let alone afford the gas to drive to the range. I think it will be in the somewhat distant future, but I think guns will go the way of the vinyl record, less and less interest every year. Think about it, rather ingenious, price ammunition so high that guns become impracticable, almost like gasoline engines!
  20. franks71vw

    franks71vw Monkey+++

    AZ today put again the ammunition marking bill again. It forces all dealers and ammunition holders to dispose of the ammunition without serial #'s dont worry the party will start soon enough[shtf]
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