When is a Jew not a Jew?

Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by tulianr, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    Should the murderer of an 8 year old little boy be granted his religious right to wear a yarmulka while in custody?

    I find the photo of this piece of **** extremely offensive, sitting there wearing his yarmulka. Were I the parents of the child, I couldn't be in the same room with him without ripping his head from his body.

    So what do you think? Should religious exemptions be granted to those who, by the very actions that have caused them to be incarcerated, give lie their claim to a special religious status?

    (Newser) – In a quiet, emotionless voice, Levi Aron yesterday pleaded guilty to the kidnapping and second-degree murder of 8-year-old Leiby Kletzky last summer, as part of the deal that will likely put him in jail for the rest of his life (he won't be eligible for parole for at least 40 years). Aron gave no explanation for his crimes, saying only that he "panicked" when he realized people were searching for Leiby, so he killed and dismembered the boy and disposed of the body parts in a suitcase, reports the AP.
    While the attorney general had previously said there were "absolutely no circumstances" that would allow him to accept a plea bargain, he yesterday agreed to accept a guilty plea to spare Leiby's family the burdens of a trial. "There is no way one can comprehend or understand the pain of losing a child," said Leiby's father, Nachman Kletzky, in a statement, adding that the plea presented "some partial closure on one aspect of this nightmare."
    896407-6-20120810062717. 896407-6-20120810062717.
  2. Cruisin Sloth

    Cruisin Sloth Special & Slow

    Should the murderer of an 8 year old little boy be granted his religious right to wear a yarmulka while in custody?
    Is he guilty ? YET !
    I present myself as WASP . My clothes are Tie ONLY for werk .
    Be rude , I don't need to answer , ask the " Correct" questions , you get a truthful answer.
    No one has ever said , hey WASP !!! , WTF with a Jewish dude !!! it's 2012 Bubba !!
    there are off colours through out the races ...
    And ,​

    Edit & suppository , one "LAW " 4 All , ;)

    It's a friggin stupid tin hat affair, why brand your A$$.
  3. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    I don't have a problem with the guy because he is Jewish. I don't have a problem with Jews wearing yarmulkas. Good on them.

    I'm saying that the utter hypocrisy of the photo offends me.

    This slime ball (And I say that because the guy has already confessed. He is not simply the "accused.") has the audacity to sit there, proclaiming his Jewish faith, after admitting to a crime that contradicts the most important (IMO) of all the laws laid down in the Torah. He abducted an eight year old Jewish child, who had stopped to ask him directions. He coldly smothered the boy, describing for the court that "he fought back a little, until eventually he stopped breathing." He then took a kitchen knife and dismembered the boy, putting his body parts in a suitcase, and throwing it into a dumpster.

    The murderer in this case is not only Jewish, but ultra-Orthodox Jewish. He thinks regular observant Jews aren't "Jewish" enough.

    I am asking, "Does the blood running through his veins make him a Jew? Or does observance of the Law make him a Jew?" When you turn your back, and your heart, to the Law, is it appropriate to proclaim your Jewishness to the world? Should this slime ball (and I'm not talking about legally, I'm talking about morally) be granted special status because of his profession of faith, even though his own actions belie that profession of faith?

    I hope his yarmulka and his kosher meals in prison bring him some comfort, because they won't do much for the family of this murdered child.
  4. ghrit

    ghrit Bad company Administrator Founding Member

    The only question in my mind is whether or not he is being discriminated against for the headgear. Usually, there are no hats in courts as a sign of respect for the law. Sikhs are exempt, I believe, and those that feel observing a higher power than the law should be granted the same exemption. I'd be curious to know if he has a history of using that as an excuse. If the prosecution can establish that he does not wear the headgear (religiously) outside the court, then stomp his azz.

    Well, stomp it anyway, he's earned it.
    Alpha Dog and tulianr like this.
  5. CATO

    CATO Monkey+++

    tulianr likes this.
  6. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    And that scuz bag is another one who deserves no special considerations. They should give him the opportunity to shave and present himself at the trial, and attempt to defend his actions. If he declines, they should hold the trial in his absence. There shouldn't be any delays or wrangling. It's open and shut. He's trying to show his piety to his religion and his God. He should have thought of that before he committed mass murder, shooting soldiers who came to the clinic for help. It's too bad he even made it to the courtroom.

    If it doesn't result in too much of a burden for the judicial system and correctional facility, I can see making some accommodations for ones religious beliefs and, legally, I suppose we have to extend those accommodations to confessed murderers; but from a moral perspective, it burns me up. If either one of those slimeballs actually understood and followed the teachings of their religions, they wouldn't be before a judge on murder charges.
  7. Brokor

    Brokor Live Free or Cry Moderator Site Supporter+++ Founding Member

    So, a Christian wearing a cross necklace who happens to have also murdered is just as irritating to you? I can see Jews murdering every day, just tune in to some Al Jazeera and watch them execute some more Palestinians.

    I say, religion is man's vehicle -where it takes them is entirely up to the driver.
    Tracy likes this.
  8. tulianr

    tulianr Don Quixote de la Monkey

    Yeah, it pretty much is just as irritating; however, I think that wearing a hat (yarmulka), in court, in front of a judge is a bit more visible as a symbol than is a cross. Now, if it was one of those six inch long pieces of bling that passes as a Christian symbol, I would say it was right up there with the yarmulka.

    What grates on my nerves is the hypocrisy. I try really hard not to judge someone else by my standards. I try to judge them by their standards. If a man loudly proclaims that he is a Jew, by his appearance or words, I try to judge him by his own standards, by the values embraced by his religion. If I find that he flagrantly flaunts those values, then I say "hypocrite." If a man proclaims himself to be a Christian, I expect him to act as a Christian. If he does not, then I say "hypocrite." If a person claims to be a "prepper", but he has no food, money, ammo, put aside; he lives hand to mouth, thinks that food comes from a can in the grocery store, and can't live without all of the latest electronic gadgetry, then I say "hypocrite!"

    I agree with you that religion is a man's vehicle, but don't claim to be riding a Harley when you're scooting along on a moped. You can have your cool shades, and headband, and flowing beard, and denim biker jacket on, but you're still a putz on a moped.
    Alpha Dog, Guit_fishN and BTPost like this.
  9. BTPost

    BTPost Stumpy Old Fart,Deadman Walking, Snow Monkey Moderator

    and just maybe you might be a "Putz on a Harley" if your riding a Harley.....
    tulianr likes this.
  10. Alpha Dog

    Alpha Dog survival of the breed

    It's called cell block religion, when they go into court and they are a$$ deep in trouble they seem to find religion in hopes the courts will think they have seen the wrong doing's in their evil ways. Now I believe in God and do not want in anyway prevent a person from his/her religon. I hate to see no matter what religion it is to be used as a cover you see it a lot in the jail systems they are changed men with the little hand made crosses. Then get out and molest a child, rape a woman or kill a family for drug money Im not saying a person can not find God and change their life but alot use it as a way out. I feel 100% that if a person cann't wear a hat in court no one should a persons religion does not affect the crime and should not be considered in the courts. If thats the case the US courts wouldn't have a say in the murder of a American citizen by a Hard line Muslim ( not all Muslim's) because their religon calls for it and says they will be rewarded for the act.
    Cephus, tulianr and TwoCrows like this.
  11. TwoCrows

    TwoCrows Monkey++

    97% of the inmates in prisons in the US are Christians.
    Gaming the system ?
    Of course they are.
    Parole boards give preference to inmates who "find religion"
  12. chelloveck

    chelloveck Diabolus Causidicus

    The same question may be asked of any vile murderous felon who self professes adherence to a particular faith. My answer is that they may be what they proclaim themselves to be....just that they are not a particularly good representative for the faith that they profess. Often those who are of the same faith professed by the felon will distance themselves from the felon's claimed membership of their faith by invoking the No True Scotsman defence. No True Scotsman - RationalWiki At what point does a Jew become a Jew? and at what point does a Jew cease to be a Jew? The same question may be asked of any person with a religious affiliation. I am doubting that commiting a criminal act (other than possibly apostasy in some Islamic nations)in and of itself would negate a person's religious affiliation...just that they have demonstrated that their sinning has descended to an even deeper level of depravity.

    I agree with your sentiment, tulian with regard to the man's evident hypocricy, perhaps his display of apparent piety may have been a tactical ploy hoping that it may get him a more lenient sentence...who knows...but if the rules of court procedure don't specifically preclude his wearing of a yarmulka then he should be allowed to wear it. Who knows, the tactical ploy may work against him and that his hypocracy may earn him an even heavier sentence...one may pray that it is so! ;)
    tulianr likes this.
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